The Turks

Knight-Dragon

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This is in continuation fr the Turkish thread in the Civilisations forum which had been locked. Replying to milty's post.

Posted by me
>>The original Turkish tribes arose in the same geographical area as the Hsiung-nu. They formed a great confederation which threatened the Chinese Tang empire in the 7th or 8th century AD, but were eventually divided and driven west by the Tang emperors (who were half-Turkish themselves). In the course of their migration to Central Asia, then Persia, then Mesopotamia, then Anatolia, they picked up Mid-Eastern characteristics (mingling with locals).

To say they were of the same racial stock (originally) as the Huns would probably be correct but eventually developments would differentiate the two peoples. >>


Posted by milty
Personally I'm not sure where the original Turks came from but from a brief research most indications say the Seljuks were of nomad stock near the Caspian Sea. That is considerably farther west than the Xiung-Nu or Xian-Bei or Yian or other nomads in the northern far east.
The Turks were originally ironsmiths of the nomadic tribes in Mongolia. Later they formed their own confederation (in the steppe manner) and rose to power. This Turkish confederation proved to be the Tang empire's greatest enemy. But the Turkish confederation later splited into two and the Tang seized the chance to take one faction in as their allies and turned on the other, eventually breaking them and driving them to the West, specifically to Central Asia and beyond. The Seljuks formed portion of some of these displaced Turks.

The Tang dynasty family, founded by Li Yuen and his son Li Shi-ming, were originally warlords in the Taiyuen area in Shanxi, near where the orignal Qin kingdom was in the 4th century BC.
The Qin kingdom was in the Wei valley, further west (the one where Xi'an is today). Not sure where the Li family had their original power base though. They're not warlords; they're part of the aristocracy of the preceding Sui dynasty and held important positions in the imperial hierarchy. After the Sui crumbled, Li Shimin persuaded his father to rebel and form his own dynastic line. They were holding one of the frontier military commands.

They were "rumored" to have at least a little central asian stock in them, most likely Tu-jue. This may have been because of the liberal policy of the Tang concerning non-Han people, and many ethnic minorities attained high offices, the most famous being An Lu-shan, whose rebellion nearly toppled the Tang.
Li Shimin's mother and grandma were Turkish. Tu-jue meant Turkish I think.

The Tang was a very cosmopolitan dynasty. They brought in the period when China was most open to the outside world. Large numbers of foreigners lived in Chang'an. Half a million foreigners were said to live in Canton, which was the main seaport to the West at this time. The Tang aristocracy played polo (a Persian sport) and led the military (very unChinese). Chinese arms reached the Hindu Kush. :)

The Tang did defeat a western Tölös-Turks in 657 at a location west of the present province of Xinjian, probably in Turkestan. This prehaps is an indication of Turkish powers in the far western border of China, and the name Turkestan seems to point to that, but they have very little in relation with the traditional enemy of ancient China, the Xiung-Nu.
The Xiongnu were long gone by the time the Tang came to power. Also Xinjiang is Eastern Turkestan, or hadn't you heard. :) The Xiongnus' role were filled by others, of which the Turks were simply the latest at that time.

You'll have to understand that the nomadic situation in Mongolia was very fluid. Tribes formed and broke; confederations rose and divided. The Xiong-nu arose in the time of the Qin and early Han; the Turks during the Sui and early Tang, in the same area. Losers in the political game were driven out or killed. Nothing stayed the same.

China's traditional enemy was any nomadic confederation fr the steppes; not any particular one, just whoever's there at that point in time. ;)
 
Some scholars question the linkage between the Xiongnu of Chinese history and the eastern Turkic peoples (Huns, etc.).

We need to specify "Turkic" when talking about the Steppe confederations because they tended to be very ethnically mixed. Even within specific clans, often records show there to have been a wide array of languages spoken. By later medieval history the Steppe empires (Khazaria, Onogur, etc.) were massive hodge-podges of Turkic, Iranian, Finno-Ugric, Arab, Slavic and etc. etc. etc. groups. When the Hungarians entered the Carpathian Basin in the 9th century it is recorded that there were many non-Magyar tribes included, among them a group called "Kabars"; "kabars" was a Turkish word for rebels at the time and the areas of known kabar settlements in Hungary have revealed large Moslem and Arab pagan idolotry in archaeological digs.

Also, the name game can be dangerous because there wasn't a set standard for names. The Byzantine records of the 8th and 9th centuries refer to Hungarians as "Turkoi" (Turks), a generic term Byzantium applied to all the equestrian peoples it wasn't familiar with to its east.
 
The Li family were definately warlords in the sense that they were part of the rivalry for power during that time. They were not upholding the old Yang family of the Sui. This series of stories are recounted in the book Romance of the Sui-Tang.

As for the Turks, lets just agree that the modern sense of the word Turks means the people of Turkey, whose history traces back to the Ottomans and Seljuks. They are not the east Asian Turkish (loosely used) nomads that was in conflict with China, which was what the original poster of this thread intended.
 
Originally posted by milty
The Li family were definately warlords in the sense that they were part of the rivalry for power during that time. They were not upholding the old Yang family of the Sui. This series of stories are recounted in the book Romance of the Sui-Tang.
History was written by victors.... :rolleyes: I was merely stating that the Li were originally powerful men under the Sui.

As for the Turks, lets just agree that the modern sense of the word Turks means the people of Turkey, whose history traces back to the Ottomans and Seljuks. They are not the east Asian Turkish (loosely used) nomads that was in conflict with China, which was what the original poster of this thread intended.
Of course not. Agreed. :)

During their trek to the West, they picked up different stuff and developed into something else, Islam being the most important chg of all. I merely pointed out both were of the same ethnic group but developed differently. ;)

You do know that the Turks are still in Central Asia, even today? One of the states there is called Turkmenistan. Turkey is trying to form and lead a Pan-Turkic league in the area.
 
Correct me if Im wrong, but I understand that the Kurds are not "cousins" to the Turks, rather bitter rivals, and Turkey wishes to "keep them down".

I am trying to follow the current situation in the middle-east (Iraq). It seems Turkey doesnt want Kurdistan to reform in northern Iraq if the US lays waste to Saddam and the ruling Bath party.

Got any skinny on this?
 
Joe,

For what it is worth, my understanding is that Turkey, Iran and Iraq have significant Kurdish populations and these countries fear the possibility of the Kurds uniting to form Greater Kurdistan, at their territorial expense.

The plight of the Kurds is a largely forgotten (ignored) problem in the Western world. As I see it the Turks will insist that any Western action against Sadam's Iraq does not include the establishment of an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq.

Btw, the Kurds appear to be hopelessly divided amongst themselves to be a real threat to these three nations.
 
Originally posted by joespaniel
Correct me if Im wrong, but I understand that the Kurds are not "cousins" to the Turks, rather bitter rivals, and Turkey wishes to "keep them down".

I am trying to follow the current situation in the middle-east (Iraq). It seems Turkey doesnt want Kurdistan to reform in northern Iraq if the US lays waste to Saddam and the ruling Bath party.

Got any skinny on this?
When did we start talking about the Kurds? :confused:

Anyway, the Kurds live in the large area where Turkey, Iran and Iraq now meet. I think they're native to the region. Turkey doesn't want a Kurdistan in N Iraq cos it'd then unstabilize its border region with the new country (mostly Kurdish).

In WW1, the British promised the Kurds they would have their own country if they rose against the Ottomans. Of course, nothing happened after the war and Iraq was formed and given to the Hashemites to rule as one of their kingdoms (the other is Jordan).

BTW, do you know that Saladin was Kurdish? :eek:
 
Originally posted by andycapp
Joe,

For what it is worth, my understanding is that Turkey, Iran and Iraq have significant Kurdish populations and these countries fear the possibility of the Kurds uniting to form Greater Kurdistan, at their territorial expense.
My understanding too.

The plight of the Kurds is a largely forgotten (ignored) problem in the Western world. As I see it the Turks will insist that any Western action against Sadam's Iraq does not include the establishment of an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq.
Considering that Turkey is part of NATO, they'll get their way. :rolleyes:

Btw, the Kurds appear to be hopelessly divided amongst themselves to be a real threat to these three nations.
Product of the fact that the Kurds never had a real state of their own thru history. They were always a part of whichever powerful empire on the scene since ancient times.
 
I brought it up because its a hot topic in US-Turkey relations right now.

How did Turkey wind up on the Central Powers side in WWI ?

Was it because of a fear of Russia ?
 
I think it was the Germans who persuaded them to. The Kaiser even gave the Turks a couple of battleships for free as enticement, staffed by German sailors. Funny when these 'Turkish' sailors wore their fez and operated the ships. :lol:

The Germans had a lot of influence with the Ottomans and Muslims generally. At least more than the Allies. E.g. during WW2, the Iraqis (Iraq then was still a British mandate) wanted to join the Axis and there were uprisings but were crushed by the British.
 
I know Hitler tried very hard to get Turkey to attack Russia after the crushing defeat at Moscow in December 1941. The Turks wisely said "no thank you". :D

I have read appalling stories about the battle at Galipoli during WWI, but I dont know much else about Turkish military history.

They are not the kind of people you want angry at you.

Turkish UN peacekeepers in Somolia saved some American soldiers from my battalion by driving their APCs into the kill-zone of a nasty ambush, thereby shielding the pinned down Americans who could get out unscathed.

That takes seriously huge balls. I have some pictures of the guys who did it too. They are tough warriors, those Turks.
 
Originally posted by milty
As for the Turks, lets just agree that the modern sense of the word Turks means the people of Turkey, whose history traces back to the Ottomans and Seljuks. They are not the east Asian Turkish (loosely used) nomads that was in conflict with China, which was what the original poster of this thread intended.

I think you don't know that Turkey Turks and Mid Asian Turks (yes they are called Turks too) speak the same language. Dialects are different, that's all.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
You do know that the Turks are still in Central Asia, even today? One of the states there is called Turkmenistan. Turkey is trying to form and lead a Pan-Turkic league in the area.

That's not the state policy of Turkey. The fascists here want this. It's not bad to improve relations with them, but not under fascist rule!
 
Of course I have heard of the Kurds, in fact I met a family at a immigrant detention camp. I just wonder where are the Kurds from? Are they the original inhabitants of Anatolia (modern day Turkey) or are they just like the Turks and are just raiding horsemen now settled?
 
The kurds never were a homogenous people who "at some time came into the region" and established themselves beside the native populace. Kurds are the product of all those tribes who once lived in the region.

quoted from: http://www.kedma.co.il/MiddleEast/states/kurdistan/kurdistan_history.htm
Being the native inhabitants of their land. there are no "beginnings" for Kurdish history and people. Kurds and their history are the end products of thousands of years of continuous internal evolution and assimilation of new peoples and ideas intro- duced sporadically into their land. Genetically, Kurds are the descendants of all those who ever came to settle in Kurdistan, and not any one of them. A people such as the Guti, Kurti. Mede, Mard, Carduchi, Gordyene, Adianbene, Zila and Khaldi signify not the ancestor of the Kurds but only an ancestor. Archaeological finds continue to docu- ment that some of mankind's earliest steps towards development of agnculture. domes- tication of many common farm animals (sheep, goats, hogs and dogs). record keep- ing (the token system), development of domestic technologies (weavmg, fired pot- tery making and glazing), metallurgy and urbanization took place in Kurdistan, dating back between 12,000 and 8.000 years ago.

The earliest evidence so far of a unified and distinct culture (and possibly, ethnicity) by people inhabiting the Kurdish moun- tains dates back to the Halaf culture of 8,000-7,400 years ago. This was followed by the spread of the Ubaidian culture, which was a foreign introduction from Mesopotamia. After about a millennium, its dominance was replaced by the Hurrian culture, which may or may not have been the Halafian people reasserting their domi- nance over their mountainous homeland. The Hurrian period lasted from 6,300 to about 2,600 years ago.

Much more is known of the Hurrians. They spoke a language of the Northeast Caucasian family of languages (or Alarodian), kin to modern Chechen and Lezgian. The Hurrians spread far and wide, dominating much territory outside their Zagros-Taurus mountain base. Their settlement of Anatolia was complete-all the way to the Aegean coasts. Like their Kurdish descendents, they however did not expand too far from the mountains. Their intrusions into the neighboring plains of Mesopotamia and the Iranian Pteau, there- fore, were primarily military annexations with little population settlement. Their economy was surprisingly integrated and focused, along with their political bonds, mainly running parallel with the Zagros- Taurus mountains, rather than radiating out to the lowlands, as was the case during the preceding (foreign) Ubaid cultural period. The mountain-plain economic exchanges remained secondary in importance, judging by the archaeological remains of goods and their origin.

The Hurrians-whose name survives now most prominently in the dialect and district of Hawraman/Awraman in Kurdistan- divided into many clans and subgroups, who set up city-states, kingdoms and empires known today after their respvi hective clan names. These included the Gutis, Kurti, Khadi, Mards, Mushku, Manna, Hatti, Mittanni, Urartu, and the Kassitis1es, to name just a few. All these were Hurrians, and together form the Hurrian phase of Kurdish history.

By about 4.000 years ago, the first van- guard of the Indo-European-speaking peoples were trickling into Kurdistan in limited numbers and settling there. These formed the aristocracy of the Mittani, Kassite, and Hittite kingdoms, while the common peopies there remained solidly Hurrian. By about 3,000 years ago, the trickle had turned into a flood, and Hurrian Kurdistan was fast becoming Indo-European Kurdistan. Far from having been wiped out, the Hurrian legacy, despite its linguistic eclipse, remains the single most important element of the Kurdish culture until today. It forms the substructure for every aspects of Kurdish existence, from their native reli- gion to their art, their social organization, women's status, and even the form of their militia warfare.

Medes, Scythians and Sagarthians are just the better-known clans of the Indo- European-speaking Aryans who settled in Kurdistan. By about 2,600 years ago, the Medes had already set up an empire that included all Kurdistan and vast territories far beyond. Medeans were followed by scores of other kingdoms and city-statesQall dom- inated by Aryan aristocracies and a populace that was becoming Indo-European, Kurdish speakers if not so already.

By the advent of the classical era in 300 BC. Kurds were already experiencing massive population movements that resulted in settlement and domination of many neighboring regions. Important Kurdish polities of this time were all byproducts of these movements. The Zelan Kurdish clan of Commagene (Adyaman area), for example, spread to establish in addition to the Zelanid dynasty of Commagene, the Zelanid kingdom of Cappadocia and the Zelanid empire of PontusQall in Anatolia. These became Roman vassals by the end of the Ist century BC. In the east the Kurdish kingdoms of Gordyene, Cortea, Media, Kirm, and Adiabene had, by the I st century B C, become confederate members of the Parthian Federation.

While all larger Kurdish Kingdoms of the west gradually lost their existence to the Romans, in the east they survived into the 3rd century A D and the advent of the Sasanian Persian empire. The last major Kurdish dynasty, the Kayosids, fell in AD 380. Smaller Kurdish principalities (called the Kotyar, "mountain administrators") however, preserved their autonomous existence into the 7th century and the coming of Islam.

Several socio-economic revolutions in the garb of religious movements emerged in Kurdistan at this time, many due to the exploitation by central governments, some due to natural disasters. These continued as underground movement into the Islamic era, bursting forth periodically to demand social reforms. The Mazdakite and Khurramite movements are best-known among these.

The eclipse of the Sasanian and Byzantine power by the Muslim caliphate, and its own subsequent weakening, permitted the Kurdish principalities and "mountain administrators" to set up new, independent states. The Shaddadids of the Caucasus and Armenia, the Rawadids of Azerbaijan, the Marwandis of eastern Anatolia; the Hasanwayhids, Fadhilwayhids, and Ayyarids of the central Zagros and the Shabankara of Fars and Kirman are some of the medieval Kurdish dynasties.

The Ayyubids stand out from these by the vastness of their domain. From their capital at Cairo they ruled territories of eastern Libya, Egypt, Yemen, western Arabia, Syria, the Holy Lands, Armenia and much of Kurdistan. As the custodians of Islam's holy cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem, the Ayyubids were instrumental in the defeat and expulsion of the Crusaders from the Holy Land.

With the 12th and 13th centuries the Turkic nomads arrived in the area who in time politically dominated vast segments of the Middle East. Most independent Kurdish states succumbed to various Turkic kingdoms and empires. Kurdish principalities, however, survived and continued with their autonomous existence until the 17th century. Intermittently, these would rule independently when local empires weakened or collapsed.

The advent of the Safavid and Ottoman empires in the area and their division of Kurdistan into two uneven imperial dependencies was on a par with the practice of the preceding few centuries. Their introduction of artillery and scorched-earth policy into Kurdistan was a new, and devastating development.

In the course of the 16th to 18th centuries, vast portions of Kurdistan were systematically devastated and large numbers of Kurds were deported to far corners of the Safavid and Ottoman empires. The magnitude of death and destruction wrought on Kurdistan unified its people in their call to rid the land of these foreign vandals. The lasting mutual suffenng awakened in Kurds a community feelingQa nationalism, that called for a unified Kurdish state and fostering of Kurdish culture and language. Thus the historian Sharaf al-Din Bitlisi wrote the first pan-Kurdish history the Sharafnama in 1597, as Ahmad Khani composed the national epic of Mem-o-Zin in 1695, which called for a Kurdish state to fend for its people. Kurdish nationalism was born.

For one last time a large Kurdish kingdomQthe Zand, was born in 1750. Like the medieval Ayyubids, however, the Zands set up their capital and kingdom outside Kurdistan, and pursued no policies aimed at unification of the Kurdish nation. By 1867, the very last autonomous Kurdish principalities were being systematically eradicated by the Ottoman and Persian governments that ruled Kurdistan. They now ruled directly, via governors, all Kurdish provinces. The situation further deteriorated after the end of the WWI and dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

The Treaty of Sevres (signed August 10, 1921) anticipated an independent Kurdish state to cover large portions of the former Ottoman Kurdistan. Unimpressed by the Kurds' many bloody uprisings for independence, France and Britain divided up Ottoman Kurdistan between Turkey, Syria and Iraq. The Treaty of Lausanne (signed June 24, 1923) formalized this division. Kurds of Persia/Iran, meanwhile, were kept where they were by Teheran.

Drawing of well-guarded state boundaries dividing Kurdistan has, since 1921, aMicted Kurdish society with such a degree of fragmentation, that its impact is tearing apar the Kurds' unity as a nation. The 1920s saw the setting up of Kurdish Autonomous Province (the "Red Kurdistan") in Soviet Azerbaijan. It was disbanded in 1929. In 1945, Kurds set up a Kurdish republic at Mahabad in the Sovie, occupied zone in Iran. It lasted one year, until it was reoccupied by the Iranian army.

Since 1970s, the Iraqi Kurds have enjoyed an official autonomous status in a portion of that state's Kurdistan. By the end of 1991, they had become all but independent from Iraq. By 1995, however, the Kurdish government in Arbil was at the verge of political suicide due to the outbreak of factional fighting between various Kurdish warlords.

Since 1987 the Kurds in Turkey by themselves constituting a majority of all KurdsQhave waged a war of national liberation against Ankara's 70 years of heavyhanded suppression of any vestige of the Kurdish identity and its rich and ancient culture. The massive uprising had by 1995 propelled Turkey into a state of civil war. The burgeoning and youthful Kurdish population in Turkey, is now demanding absolute equality with the Turkish component in that state, and failing that, full independence.
 
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