The ultimate Civ

[babar]

Not when the goal is to conquer cities...
8 plus CR3!!! That's pretty darn tough to top in the classical age.

I'm pretty sure that with prats combat beats city raider at taking cities until CR3, due to the high base strength. Plus they defend better with the combat line obviously, so you'll end up with more in the field using AGG.

 

[Spectrite]

I'm pretty sure that with prats combat beats city raider at taking cities until CR3, due to the high base strength.

Hmm, that seems common sense, but I had never thought of that until now.

However, Charismatic could still be better even for Combat line. Besides, it's quite likely that Praets will see a lot of action (useful up to medieval era) and they could get to CR3 quickly.

Also, CHA provides happiness bonus. Then again, AGG has the half-price barracks. It's a tough choice.

 

[*Svart*]

I'm pretty sure that with prats combat beats city raider at taking cities until CR3, due to the high base strength. Plus they defend better with the combat line obviously, so you'll end up with more in the field using AGG.

don't be silly... with cr3 you get a +75% attackin cities, with combat 3 a mere 30%... with cr1 a 20% vs a 10%, with cr2 a 45% vs a 20%. CR is always better than combat in takin cities. COmbat is good for other purpouse (city garrison, open field battle), so you should mix the 2 promos.

 

[Mustakrakish]

I have no particular thoughts on starting techs, but a setting I like from time to time with unrestricted leaders is Elizabeth of Rome. FIN with praets and PHI 100% with Forum 25%.
375% and FIN to pay for praets, lovely! Sounds awesome... in theory. I'm yet to have a successful game with this setting however...

 

[itg]

don't be silly... with cr3 you get a +75% attackin cities, with combat 3 a mere 30%... with cr1 a 20% vs a 10%, with cr2 a 45% vs a 20%. CR is always better than combat in takin cities.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Combat only wins because of a quirk in the combat mechanics. Don't quote me on this, but as I understand it, combat always increases your strength, attacking or defending, but CR cancels out defender bonuses as long as the defender's bonuses are greater. What this means in practice is that combat is the better choice either when you have a large base strength advantage or when the opponent has a ton of defensive bonuses.

 

[kochman]

I'm pretty sure that with prats combat beats city raider at taking cities until CR3, due to the high base strength. Plus they defend better with the combat line obviously, so you'll end up with more in the field using AGG.

I play to take cities... not defend in the field.
I bring along some axemen to defend taken cities/stacks.

The CR line, it is clearly mathematically superior to the main point of a combat units existence (expanding your empire). I do generally get a combat I praet so I can then give him 2 medic promotions... but the majority are easily CR... which become pretty cool when upgraded to riflemen and infantry, by which time they generally have some combat or drill as well due to their heavy success rate at crushing the enemy prior to being upgraded.

 

[Fleme]

Either

Phi/Ind
Seowon
Praetorian
Agriculture/Mining

or

Financial/Organized
Rathaus
Praetorian
Agriculture/Mining

I'd take the latter but the former would be good fun for a spin.

 

[pi-r8]

I think almost all the best players agree that the Holy Roman Empire is already the best possible civ, in every respect.

 

[babar]

don't be silly... with cr3 you get a +75% attackin cities, with combat 3 a mere 30%... with cr1 a 20% vs a 10%, with cr2 a 45% vs a 20%. CR is always better than combat in takin cities. COmbat is good for other purpouse (city garrison, open field battle), so you should mix the 2 promos.

Like I said, CR3 beats Combat 3, but Combat 1 & 2 actually beats CR1 & 2. I believe this is because combat increases your base strength (8) while CR decreases the defender's (3). Combat 3 prats (or 4 if you are AGG) destroy archers anyway, and by the time longbows arrive you'll need siege regardless of your fancy CR promotions. Also you don't have to worry about stack defense, or even stacks, because a single prat can wander through enemy/barb territory and resupply your front line without danger.

 

[r_rolo1]

I think almost all the best players agree that the Holy Roman Empire is already the best possible civ, in every respect.

Shhh, TMIT might be hearing it

On topic:

Fin/Org
Terrace
Fast worker

And Agri/mining if you let me choose techs as well

 

[cherrysnowdrop]

Philosophical/Industrious, for a great cultural civ
Sacrificial Altar, to whip quickly
Quechua, to maybe destroy early a neighbor
Wheel/Agriculture so I don't have to bother with 2 worker techs

 

[*Svart*]

Like I said, CR3 beats Combat 3, but Combat 1 & 2 actually beats CR1 & 2. I believe this is because combat increases your base strength (8) while CR decreases the defender's (3). Combat 3 prats (or 4 if you are AGG) destroy archers anyway, and by the time longbows arrive you'll need siege regardless of your fancy CR promotions. Also you don't have to worry about stack defense, or even stacks, because a single prat can wander through enemy/barb territory and resupply your front line without danger.

Sorry i really don't get it that combat promos don't work like the other +% stuff... so combat is a mere bonus to str, regardless the bonus of the attacker/defender?
My fault. So yeah, combat is better against archer, but worse against longbow, right?

 

[kochman]

It breaks down to any bonus that is not situational helps the attacker... whereas any bonus that is situational works against the defender.
Believe me, it doesn't make Combat better than CR at attacking anything in the cities, mathematically speaking.

There is a thread here that gets into great detail about the math and how to work it.

 

[*Svart*]

It breaks down to any bonus that is not situational helps the attacker... whereas any bonus that is situational works against the defender.
Believe me, it doesn't make Combat better than CR at attacking anything in the cities, mathematically speaking.

There is a thread here that gets into great detail about the math and how to work it.

let's check

Typical denfender, archer cg1 with a 20% of cultural bonus (and then without the bonus, let's think about a bombarded city)


case 1: pret with cr1. cr1 20%- cg1 20%+defence 20% = -20% to pret strength. Pret have a total of 7.2
case 2 pret with combat1. +10str pret is 8.8 . -40% for the archer bonus, so the total is 5,28 :strenght: (and I'm not sure that combat bonus is first or after the malus for the archer)

Case 3 pret with cr1. 20%cr1-20%cg1= 8 :strenght:
case 4 pret with combat1. 8.8 :strenght: -20%cg1= 7.04


I'm missing something or my calculations are right?

CR1 is better than combat, no mistakes

 

[kochman]

I think it is more like this...
Case 1 Praet w/ CR1 vs archer (in city, no promotions, no cultural defense, to simplify things)
8 vs 3 + 25% in city /1.25
8 vs 3
62.5% odds of winning

Case 2 Praet w/ C1 vs similar archer
8.8 vs 3.75
57.4% odds of winning

And then...
Praet w/ CR2 vs same archer
8 vs 3 + 25% in city /1.5
8 vs 2.5
68.75% odds of winning

Case 2 Praet w/ C2 vs similar archer
9.6 vs 3.75
61% odds of winning

And then
Praet w/ CR3 vs same archer
8 vs 3 + 25% in city /1.75
8 vs 2.14
74.3% odds of winning

Case 2 Praet w/ C3 vs similar archer
10.4 vs 3.75
64% odds of winning

Of course, on the flip side, with Combat line, you open up other promotions that rock... and in any situation outside of Praet attacking a city, the CR is obvioulsy no good... but 90% of my Praet battles are just that, attacking cities.

 

[babar]

Ok! I was wrong! But having done some world builder tests, I'm not getting your numbers. Under a variety of conditions CR1 & 2 are coming out only very slightly ahead, and sometimes not at all. I still like the versatility of the combat promos though because you don't have to worry about them in the field or defending cities, or keeping the right balance of promos in a region. Sometimes 2 or 3 prats are enough to take a city, and you don't want one of them getting picked off on the way.

 

[*Svart*]

yeah, you are right, you should not give them all cr promos, some must be combat.

 

[kochman]

yeah, you are right, you should not give them all cr promos, some must be combat.

Oh yes, I acknowledged that! I generally make on a GG for example, Combat I, then Medic I - III.

 

[kochman]

Ok! I was wrong!

Don't worry about it, it's not like I came up with the correct answer for this myself. In fact, I have learned about 90% of my ideas about the game before I came to this forum were wrong since I came to the forum. Hell, I even hold onto some of my wrong ideas because it fits how I play better!

 

[pi-r8]

OK I can't resist doing this.
CR3 is great, but combat can be better than CR1 and even CR2 for attacking cities.

CR2 Praetorian vs. archer with CG2, 60% culture , 25% fortify, innate 50% city bonus:
Praet has 8
Archer has 3*2.15 = 7.05
8/7.05 = 1.13

C2 Praetorian vs. the same archer:
Praet has 8*1.2 = 9.6
Archer has 3*2.6 = 8.4
9.6/8.4 = 1.14

The C2 Praetorian has superior odds for attacking the city, in that situation.