The ultimate Civ

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by rugbyLEAGUEfan, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. babar

    babar King

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    600
    I'm pretty sure that with prats combat beats city raider at taking cities until CR3, due to the high base strength. Plus they defend better with the combat line obviously, so you'll end up with more in the field using AGG.
     
  2. Spectrite

    Spectrite Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2010
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    USA
    Hmm, that seems common sense, but I had never thought of that until now.

    However, Charismatic could still be better even for Combat line. Besides, it's quite likely that Praets will see a lot of action (useful up to medieval era) and they could get to CR3 quickly.

    Also, CHA provides happiness bonus. Then again, AGG has the half-price barracks. It's a tough choice.
     
  3. *Svart*

    *Svart* Icecream Vendor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Italy
    don't be silly... with cr3 you get a +75% attackin cities, with combat 3 a mere 30%... with cr1 a 20% vs a 10%, with cr2 a 45% vs a 20%. CR is always better than combat in takin cities. COmbat is good for other purpouse (city garrison, open field battle), so you should mix the 2 promos.
     
  4. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,520
    Location:
    Grainvillage, Finland
    I have no particular thoughts on starting techs, but a setting I like from time to time with unrestricted leaders is Elizabeth of Rome. FIN with praets and PHI 100%:gp: with Forum 25%:gp:. :)
    375%:gp: and FIN to pay for praets, lovely! Sounds awesome... in theory. I'm yet to have a successful game with this setting however... :twitch:
     
  5. itg

    itg Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    187
    Location:
    AZ or TX
    You'd think so, wouldn't you? Combat only wins because of a quirk in the combat mechanics. Don't quote me on this, but as I understand it, combat always increases your strength, attacking or defending, but CR cancels out defender bonuses as long as the defender's bonuses are greater. What this means in practice is that combat is the better choice either when you have a large base strength advantage or when the opponent has a ton of defensive bonuses.
     
  6. kochman

    kochman Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,818
    I play to take cities... not defend in the field.
    I bring along some axemen to defend taken cities/stacks.

    The CR line, it is clearly mathematically superior to the main point of a combat units existence (expanding your empire). I do generally get a combat I praet so I can then give him 2 medic promotions... but the majority are easily CR... which become pretty cool when upgraded to riflemen and infantry, by which time they generally have some combat or drill as well due to their heavy success rate at crushing the enemy prior to being upgraded.
     
  7. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,205
    Either

    Phi/Ind
    Seowon
    Praetorian
    Agriculture/Mining

    or

    Financial/Organized
    Rathaus
    Praetorian
    Agriculture/Mining

    I'd take the latter but the former would be good fun for a spin.
     
  8. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,527
    Location:
    Babylon
    I think almost all the best players agree that the Holy Roman Empire is already the best possible civ, in every respect.
     
  9. babar

    babar King

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    600
    Like I said, CR3 beats Combat 3, but Combat 1 & 2 actually beats CR1 & 2. I believe this is because combat increases your base strength (8) while CR decreases the defender's (3). Combat 3 prats (or 4 if you are AGG) destroy archers anyway, and by the time longbows arrive you'll need siege regardless of your fancy CR promotions. Also you don't have to worry about stack defense, or even stacks, because a single prat can wander through enemy/barb territory and resupply your front line without danger.
     
  10. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Shhh, TMIT might be hearing it :p

    On topic:

    Fin/Org
    Terrace
    Fast worker

    And Agri/mining if you let me choose techs as well ;)
     
  11. cherrysnowdrop

    cherrysnowdrop Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2009
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Someplace with connection
    Philosophical/Industrious, for a great cultural civ
    Sacrificial Altar, to whip quickly
    Quechua, to maybe destroy early a neighbor
    Wheel/Agriculture so I don't have to bother with 2 worker techs :D
     
  12. *Svart*

    *Svart* Icecream Vendor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Italy
    Sorry i really don't get it that combat promos don't work like the other +% stuff... so combat is a mere bonus to str, regardless the bonus of the attacker/defender?
    My fault. So yeah, combat is better against archer, but worse against longbow, right?
     
  13. kochman

    kochman Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,818
    It breaks down to any bonus that is not situational helps the attacker... whereas any bonus that is situational works against the defender.
    Believe me, it doesn't make Combat better than CR at attacking anything in the cities, mathematically speaking.

    There is a thread here that gets into great detail about the math and how to work it.
     
  14. *Svart*

    *Svart* Icecream Vendor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Italy
    let's check

    Typical denfender, archer cg1 with a 20% of cultural bonus (and then without the bonus, let's think about a bombarded city)


    case 1: pret with cr1. cr1 20%- cg1 20%+defence 20% = -20% to pret strength. Pret have a total of 7.2 :strength:
    case 2 pret with combat1. +10str pret is 8.8 :strength:. -40% for the archer bonus, so the total is 5,28 :strenght: (and I'm not sure that combat bonus is first or after the malus for the archer)

    Case 3 pret with cr1. 20%cr1-20%cg1= 8 :strenght:
    case 4 pret with combat1. 8.8 :strenght: -20%cg1= 7.04 :strength:


    I'm missing something or my calculations are right?

    CR1 is better than combat, no mistakes :p
     
  15. kochman

    kochman Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,818
    I think it is more like this...
    Case 1 Praet w/ CR1 vs archer (in city, no promotions, no cultural defense, to simplify things)
    8:strength: vs 3:strength: + 25% in city /1.25
    8:strength: vs 3:strength:
    62.5% odds of winning

    Case 2 Praet w/ C1 vs similar archer
    8.8:strength: vs 3.75:strength:
    57.4% odds of winning

    And then...
    Praet w/ CR2 vs same archer
    8:strength: vs 3:strength: + 25% in city /1.5
    8:strength: vs 2.5:strength:
    68.75% odds of winning

    Case 2 Praet w/ C2 vs similar archer
    9.6:strength: vs 3.75:strength:
    61% odds of winning

    And then
    Praet w/ CR3 vs same archer
    8:strength: vs 3:strength: + 25% in city /1.75
    8:strength: vs 2.14:strength:
    74.3% odds of winning

    Case 2 Praet w/ C3 vs similar archer
    10.4:strength: vs 3.75:strength:
    64% odds of winning

    Of course, on the flip side, with Combat line, you open up other promotions that rock... and in any situation outside of Praet attacking a city, the CR is obvioulsy no good... but 90% of my Praet battles are just that, attacking cities.
     
  16. babar

    babar King

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    600
    Ok! I was wrong!:blush: But having done some world builder tests, I'm not getting your numbers. Under a variety of conditions CR1 & 2 are coming out only very slightly ahead, and sometimes not at all. I still like the versatility of the combat promos though because you don't have to worry about them in the field or defending cities, or keeping the right balance of promos in a region. Sometimes 2 or 3 prats are enough to take a city, and you don't want one of them getting picked off on the way.
     
  17. *Svart*

    *Svart* Icecream Vendor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Italy
    yeah, you are right, you should not give them all cr promos, some must be combat.
     
  18. kochman

    kochman Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,818
    Oh yes, I acknowledged that! I generally make on a GG for example, Combat I, then Medic I - III.
     
  19. kochman

    kochman Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,818
    Don't worry about it, it's not like I came up with the correct answer for this myself. In fact, I have learned about 90% of my ideas about the game before I came to this forum were wrong since I came to the forum. Hell, I even hold onto some of my wrong ideas because it fits how I play better!
     
  20. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,527
    Location:
    Babylon
    OK I can't resist doing this.
    CR3 is great, but combat can be better than CR1 and even CR2 for attacking cities.

    CR2 Praetorian vs. archer with CG2, 60% culture , 25% fortify, innate 50% city bonus:
    Praet has 8 :strength:
    Archer has 3*2.15 = 7.05 :strength:
    8/7.05 = 1.13

    C2 Praetorian vs. the same archer:
    Praet has 8*1.2 = 9.6 :strength:
    Archer has 3*2.6 = 8.4 :strength:
    9.6/8.4 = 1.14

    The C2 Praetorian has superior odds for attacking the city, in that situation.
     

Share This Page