Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Grendel, Feb 14, 2003.
You're mocking me arent you?
I agree with u- the long ship denial makes no sense. Although i will say that the beserk with amphipibeous assault does kind of make up for it, the point is a strong attack from the sea -but what about the vikings ability to traverse the ocean? Explore ect.
Suppose that ya can't have both because it would unbalance the game. I also know that they must have thought about this one for awhile and decided on the beserk because of players fondness for strong offensive UU's. I think that all would be balanced if they just extended the age of sail, this would make the man o war and the conquisidor stronger without changing anything else.
Not at all Greyhawk1.
Your idea was good, I like it very much. The only UU ship is the English Man-O-War and it is almost useless. It would be nice to have a useful ship UU, and a galley that can go over sea at least with maybe move 4 would be a fine UU, and it would be suitably different from the other UU's.
Unlike some at CFC I am rude in a direct way when I want to be, there are too many language differences to be subtle when taking the piss.
I recently noticed an additional problem with the Numidian Mercenary, one that I haven't seen mentioned here yet. It upgrades to a Pikeman! Now that may seem logical at first, since it's a unique Spearman, but take a look at some numbers.
Spearman: 1/2/1, 20s
Numidian Mercenary: 2/3/1, 30s
Hoplite: 1/3/1, 20s
Pikeman: 1/3/1, 30s
The Hoplite upgrades to the Musketman skipping Pikeman, since an upgrade to Pikeman would simply make a unit with equivalent abilities that costs more. The Numidian Mercenary, on the other hand, "upgrades" to Pikeman losing one point of attack for the same cost.
Does that make any sense? Why would I want to "upgrade" my Numidian Mercenaries? This would make me actually want to avoid Feudalism as long as possible, so I could keep making the better unit. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for the Numidian Mercenary to have an upgrade path that leads directly to Musketman?
I haven't checked carefully, but I don't think there's any other unique unit that actually gets worse when you upgrade it. Sure, some might lose a point of defense, but they gain in attack to make up for it. The only difference between Numidian Mercenaries and Pikemen is the 2 attack compared to 1.
Gallic Swords lose a movement to gain an attack, this is stupid if you do it.
FWIW, you can always build your UU if you have the tech and resources, so you can hold off upgrading until something useful.
But at least there's a tradeoff there. Sure, it's a debatable tradeoff, but the Numidians are a clear loss or tie in all areas.
Good point. I still think it's weird.
My bad then
I think Firaxis got some of their historical research a bit screwed up.
English Man-o-War? What was so great about English ships in the age of sail other than they were commanded by superb tacticians? Other ships of the line for other equally powerful cultures were pretty decent stuff just commanded by idiots (spanish armada anyone?).
IMHO the English Redcoat, Supermarine Spitfire, Dreadnaught or other far more significant unit would be more representative.
Also one UU per civ is an insult to each culture. Considering that some of the cultures gracing Civ3 encompass thousands of years of history - coming up with just a single UU out of all that history is a bit dismissive of culture in general.
I had to laugh at the US UU - the F-15. There are thousands of makes of Jet Fighter around, the F-15 is just one of them. The one unit that makes the US stand head and shoulders out from the crowd (speaking as a non-us citizen) would be the Space Shuttle.
I've no idea how this could be implemented in Civ3 but game designers have a good imagination. I'd imagine it would be perfect for scouting any square on the map revealing all units, enhancements and so on per turn in any civ's territory and each Shuttle built could speed the Space Race for the US or something.
Surely in years to come the US will be known for this rather than the F-15!
Not only that, you loose 10 Shields by upgrading them (for free) to Med.Infantry, so when you upgrade your Med.Inf to Guerilla they are more expensive to upgrade then the Gallic Swordsmen are.
This is only 20 Gold, but still.
And great thread Grendel.
I wholeheartedly agree, and many posts here have made me rethink how I use military units.
A few final notes about the Viking Berserk: The Archer upgrades to the Berserk (albeit at a cost of 50 gold! ), and the Berserk "upgrades" to the Guerilla. Also, the Berserk can indeed take a city with an amphibious attack -- I know this fact very vividly because in a recent multiplayer game, I generated an out of synch error and had to reload every single time I did so. The last 20 or so turns of the game took 5 hours...
<attack> ... <take city> ... <out of synch> ... <reconnect> .............................................................................. <reload> ...................................... <SNORE!>
Thank goodness for the 1.21f PTW patch, which I just downloaded today!
All in all, I extend a final thanks and appreciation for all the interesting point of views expressed in this thread!
Grendal, the beserk upgrade is 100 gold. Methinks you've been playing too much accelerated production!
Numidian mercenaries do NOT upgrade to pikemen.
Conquistadors are great for not only pillaging and making it out alive, as you can get then before gunpowder is researched on the mid-lower lvls, but also for taking and disbanding enemy workers.
With the ability to destroy the enemies worker force, they can't rebuild after pillaging. Plus, conquistadors are (theoretically) great for chasing down wounded pas units try to flee back home.
Yes they do. Run the scenario editor and look at the unit definitions. For Numidian Mercenary the "Upgrade to" field says "Pikeman." Can't be much more clear than that.
Granted, you're an idiot if you actually do that upgrade, but the upgrade path is there.
Dr Elmer Jiggle, what patch do you use?
my god! You're right!
Thanks. I knew I wasn't crazy.
FWIW, I'm using the almost latest PTW patch (haven't installed the really new one from last week yet), whatever number that is. It's mostly not a big deal -- if it bothers you, just don't upgrade your Numidian Mercenaries until you have Gunpowder -- but it seems like a strange oversight, especially given that Hoplites have a more logical upgrade path that leads directly to Musketmen.
On the other hand, I actually thought of a good reason to consider "upgrading" Numidian Mercenaries to Pikemen in certain situations. All the obvious statistics are either the same or a downgrade, but there is one key difference where Pikemen could be an improvement. Pikemen can't cause a Golden Age.
If someone declares a poorly timed war on you, and you're not in the mood yet for a Golden Age, you could upgrade your Numidian Mercenaries to avoid an unwanted Golden Age. It's probably not something that would happen often, since most people would be pretty happy with an early Middle Ages Golden Age, but maybe you haven't switched governments yet, or maybe you're still expanding, ... Whatever the reason, it at least makes it not 100% stupid (though still maybe 99% to upgrade a Numidian Mercenary to a Pikeman.
Good ranking, overall. I disagree with some, though:
Rider: this one is an A for me. My favorite UU overall. Powerful, well-timed, and provided to a militaristic civ. Yum.
War Chariot: I'd give it a B. Its greatness lies in its cheapness.
Gallic Swordsman: I'd give it a B or B-. It's the War Chariot's evil twin. Super expensive, but powerful. Frankly, I'd rather have the Mounted Warrior, but the Iroquois are not militaristic. Powerful unit + militaristic civ = more great leaders. Massing enough of these units to do the job is hard, though.
And one defense (due to a well-written criticism by Sulla):
Samurai: I'd give him a B, like you did. Though I typically don't see much point to adding defense to an offensive unit & vice-versa, a high-defense FASTMOVER is worth a tad more, as enemy fastmovers will die with pleasing regularity if they attack you. Add to that the good timing (as with the Rider, I like an early medieval UU).
Numidean Mercenarys and Hoplites do not upgrade to pikeman.
If you look at either in the editor, it does say "Upgrades to Pikeman", but if you look at pikeman in the editor you'll notice that Carthage and Greece are unable to build pikeman.
So the game looks to next unit in the upgrade path that the civ is able to build, musketman.
Jak, that makes more sense. Thank you.
Oh yeah. Well that makes a heck of a lot more sense than upgrading to a worse unit. Thanks.
yea gj that uu ranking helped me alot.
I've noticed several people have somewhat downplayed the awesome might of the Berserks, and I feel I need to set that straight. I agree completely with Grendel, the Berserk is the best UU. First of all, for those of you who say it's useless for a landlocked country, I say... duh! That's why you only play Scandanavians on continents and archipelego! Of course it's not going to work on a pangea! And second of all, who cares if it's so much slower than a knight, it's never going to have to travel on its own! It hops into a galley and sails around for the rest of the game, only getting out to pillage some cities. If you're berserk is doing a lot of moving, you're using him wrong! Anyway, I definitely agree that this unit is clearly too good! And thanks Grendel, for opening my eyes to the wonderful world of BERSERKS!!
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