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The United States of Europe

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Civciv5, Feb 15, 2012.

?

Are you for a United Europe or against?

  1. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(including Russia)

    14.3%
  2. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European Union)(including Russia)

    14.3%
  3. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(excluding Russia)

    12.5%
  4. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European union)(excluding Russia)

    33.9%
  5. No,I'm against it

    25.0%
  1. Benefactor

    Benefactor Beneficial

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    Your phrasing seemed to suggest that you thought the UK wasn't a European country.

    'If the other European countries want Union' :p .


    edit: You where only responding to the 1st line right?
     
  2. Colonel Mustard

    Colonel Mustard Condiment Pirate Mouse

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    Valid.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Problem is, most of these institutions are a consequence of confederatist ideas such as yours. The weakness of the parliament, the undemocratic selection of the commissioners and the far to powerful European Council are direct results of the desire to keep the important things in national hands.

    Why do you think close customs/traditions are necessary? And why not English?

    But at least - excepting the unlawful Turkish occupation of parts of the island, of course - Cyprus is dominated by Greek culture.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    If there was a USE (well, better acronym than TOOL i guess) first there would have to be massive changes to ensure democratic representation. It does seem now that the EU was at best a dream, at worst a trap, and it did not promote union of peoples at all, which we now see as very evident in the large chasms forming against any meaningful idea of helping the countries in trouble.
     
  5. wilycoyote

    wilycoyote King

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    I don't understand why someone would want a US-style union in Europe. It would create a political body more powerful than Europe has now (perhaps the most powerful in the world), but so what, when every culture in that union is so different that the political positions of that body may not be representative of one's home nation. It barely works for the US and over here, we are more or less than same as each other. If California a culture, etc. like Germany, Texas like Britain, Florida like Italy, Alabama like Greece, etc., it would fail here too.

    What Europe has now, minus the common currency, seems to me to be the most reasonable option.
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Solidarity and responsibility are two sides of the same coin.
     
  7. imperialman

    imperialman Admiral

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    It's actually off the coast of Asia Minor, but it's generally counted as part of Europe, as are all those little Greek islands that are so close to Turkey.. The distinction between Europe and Asia is totally artificial anyway. Europe is merely the westernmost past of the real continent or Eurasia. Similar situations are Iceland being counted as Europe, and the Channel Islands being counted as part of the British Isles. I wonder why you might be biased, hmm. :lol:
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    We are beyond the responsibility phase, and well into the punishment one. But what people in Germany fail to realize is that the break up of the EU in the long run will be against them. With tariffs rising sky high their products will have effectively lost half of Europe as a market.
     
  9. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

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    Lets be honest here. Europe isn't so much a continent as it is a peninsula off Asia.
    I suggest the world renames it West Asia.

    I wouldn't put current Russia in a Federated European state though.
    Mostly because Russia would make 65% of the new European state and 16% of her population. Using her massive size and resources, she would easily dominate Europe. Russia needs not join a union when she herself is a union.
     
  10. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Punishment? Look, I realize I am an outsider in this whole EU thing, but how is it punishment? You can simply refuse the loan. Nobody is forcing Greece to take it. There is no punishment involved here. Just help on their terms.
     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    You have lost episodes, eurogroup is now discussing placing a rule that allows for Greece to be expelled from the eurozone if it does not fulfill all requests. This is in effect not an EU anymore, but a Germania and satellites.
    And personally i would have loved if Greece had declared bankrupcy last year, before all of this circus. Then it would have been in vastly better position, even if as a russian (probably) or chinese (less likely) satellite. This country has been a satellite of the western powers since 1831, so little would change, but it would have been better for the people.

    Of course i am giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you honestly do not get what is going on and actually think the EU is brain-dead and wants to make an example out of Greece which is 2% of its GNP (ie it risks the euro currency collapsing for 2%)
     
  12. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    And the Falklands Isles are Argentinian.
     
  13. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    In your defense, it's just a tiny two-letter insertion. The USA in Spanish is "los Estados Unidos de América". And that's not even counting another copycat that was doing it before it was cool. Oh fine, they used the term province instead of state, so what?



    On topic, I agree more with wilycoyote's line of argument than the unity line. The common culture of Europe is beating the tar out of each other every couple decades, why would you want to get rid of that? :D
     
  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I can't vote because the EU will always (or at least for the forseeable future) be NOT a country, and NOT just a union. It's something in between.
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Well, Europe is traditionally defined as "whatever the hell I want Europe to be", so it's hard to correct him too sternly on this. Bit like arguing about what colour the fairy's wings are, really.
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    We are stuck in the responsibility phase until Greece can sustain its spendings in the long run, so you don't have to rely on foreign money to sustain your standard of living indefinitely. Do you really think we've passed that point?

    The people in Germany realize this quite well, thank you very much. It's the reason why we even started pouring money into that bottomless pit of yours.

    This doesn't mean we let Greece hold the common currency hostage to essentially sustain its standard of living with foreign taxpayer money without any intention to balance its budget on the long run.

    You're inconsistent. I thought you hate the Eurozone, why don't you support this then? Greece already has the possibility to leave the Eurozone on its own volition, why don't you support this?

    It's more like you complain about everything out of a sense of fatalism, and applaud populist nutjobs like Samaras while doing so.
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Yes. "How dare you misquote me on what Europe is. You don't know my preconceptions!" :)
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Not really, geographical Europe is pretty well define.. if you ignore Turkey and the exact border in the east.
     
  19. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

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    Yay, we get to have the Greek debate again! This is, what, take 3?
     
  20. gangleri2001

    gangleri2001 Garbage day!!!

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    No. A confederation has a central government and the EU hasn't, so don't tell me that the current status of the EU is confederalist ideas' fault because it isn't. The current mishmash of undemocratic and/or irrelevant institutions is the consequence of going to slowly, having no idea what parts of the national sovereignty should be transfered to an hyptothetic central government and which shouldn't (because transfering it all to the central ovenrment would be suicidal) and the fact that states still look for their own interests and many times think of the EU as a sort of diplomatic experiment and nothin else. In other words, it's bureaucracy's fault or, better said, the state apparatuses acting on their own because they're (still) blind enough not to see that they need a central authority if they really want the EU to succeed.
     

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