The United States of Europe

[Leoreth]

Russia should definitely be a part of European State. Yes, it would constituate 20% of its population and 2/3 of its territory, so what? It took Slavs millenia of blood and sweat to conquer the forest and the steppe for European civilization (of which they are the biggest part) colonise it and make it suitable for living, so it's well deserved.

Arguing for European membership by appealing to national folklore. Great.

 

[muhtesem insan]

I don't know what he's going to say, but I for one am interested in what you think they are. As a neophyte to Eastern European relations, I don't know much about it myself and would be interested to hear the opinions of a man of Turkey on that question.

Some even say Turks and Greeks are same nation with different Religions. In population exchange of 1923 Turks who chose christianity have been seen as greeks and sent to greece. (same for muslim greeks). And this is expected, two peoples lived together for almost a millennium.
I find the idea of "European Culture" is absurd. Greeks had much more interraction with Turks, Arabs and Persians than Germans or English. There's a cultural bind between mediterranean nations but not whole europe.

 

[Leoreth]

... so why, exactly, don't Greeks and Turks get along?

 

[aronnax]

... so why, exactly, don't Greeks and Turks get along?

It's about 50% nationalism, 48% historical irredentism and 2% real problems, like airspace violation.

 

[Arakhor]

Maybe Greece is still trying to claim Byzantine cores on Anatolia and Turkey is being just as unhelpful.

 

[Leoreth]

Damn, that just proved his point, because Greece would've long lost these cores if the Turks wouldn't be in the same culture group

 

[kochman]

I really doubt that a real european nation will ever emerge (even with many languages). We have long established nationalities with strong identities.

I agree... and, take Catalyuna for example... or parts of Northern Italy... even within a country, when one group ends up, whether in reality or perception, pulling more of the load/paying more of the bills, etc... it builds up resent.
On the international scale, Germany and the Northern Euro states are getting quite sick of the financial status of the Mediterranean States (outside of August vacation time anyhow).

5% of Turkey is in Europe, but I don't think that qualifies it to be in any form of European union. If it was we would then share borders with Syria, Iraq and Iran.

EDIT: Turkey is as part of Europe as Russia btw

1)How many square kilometers of Turkey are in Europe?
Roughly 5% of Turkey is in Europe, roughly 39,000 km2.
2)How many square kilometers of Russia are in Europe?
Almost 4,000,000 km2 (and 75% of the population lives in this area)

Also, how much of Turkish culture is European?
How much of Russian culture is European?

0% of Cyprus is in Europe.

The majority of Atlas's say this, but... see next part.

But at least - excepting the unlawful Turkish occupation of parts of the island, of course - Cyprus is dominated by Greek culture.

Exactly... The island has been European for SOOOOO long culturally. The insane invasion by Turkey in 1974 aside.

 

[Winner]

Are you for or against a united Europe?

I am for Europe united under a liberal, democratic, federative, and responsible government.

With Europe I mean all of Europe(including Russia and Greenland,not including Turkey)

Eventually, the EU should include all European nations, yes.

If European countries want union fine by me, just keep Her Majesties government out of it.

Fine with us - we'll be happy to provide it with a nice island far, far away where it can continue its business in peace while the British Isles are properly incorporated in the EU (I think we should call it the Province of Britannia again).

I support a unified Europe, on the condition they get a manned space program and paint the capsules European Union blue to make part of one of my favorite books become true.

You have my vote. Which book is that, btw?

0% of Cyprus is in Europe.

But 75% or so of it is culturally European, which is what matters.

I really doubt that a real european nation will ever emerge (even with many languages). We have long established nationalities with strong identities. In my opinion options 1 and 3 are not doable due to these strong national identities and apply them would take centuries because it would take creating a new and single european identity and having it replace our current and deeply-rooted nations and identities.

What else can one expect from a nationalist than the same old narrative of eternal nation states. Sigh.

I say we better make Europe a nation of nations, that's to say, a confederacy in the strict meaning of the word, with many sovereign nations within it and a central government that, althouh not as strong as those of federations, at least would have a role and specific attributes within confederal politics and not the absolute mess of institutions nobody knows and/or cares about we have right now. I this solution fails I say we better return to the old days.

What's the "strict meaning" of a confederation? Because this is one of the least defined concept in international relations. I've always thought of it as a transitional state - either on the way to federation, or on the way towards independent nation states.

If this latest economic crisis is telling us something, it's that the integration process doesn't keep up with the "market expectations", the pressure of real-world problems. Europe simply should have been a federation in 2009/2010.

You have lost episodes, eurogroup is now discussing placing a rule that allows for Greece to be expelled from the eurozone if it does not fulfill all requests. This is in effect not an EU anymore, but a Germania and satellites.

You're getting European money to stay afloat, you better sing to the European tune. I don't see what's so wrong about that.

 

[warpus]

Also, how much of Turkish culture is European?

When I compare Turkish food to Greek food I see a lot of similarities. Music? Same thing.. Language? It all sounds the same to me

 

[kochman]

When I compare Turkish food to Greek food I see a lot of similarities. Music? Same thing.. Language? It all sounds the same to me

I didn't mean to say there are no similarities.
Heck, the ME in general has impacted Europe... and vice versa.

But, I'd say the Greeks have had WAY more of an impact on the Turks than vice versa...
And even the modern greeks don't have that much of an impact on Modern European culture in general... the modern Turks have way less (but still some).

 

[Winner]

When I compare Turkish food to Greek food I see a lot of similarities. Music? Same thing.. Language? It all sounds the same to me

If it does, you must be deaf and blind. No offence

 

[Tahuti]

But 75% or so of it is culturally European, which is what matters.

What about countries like Australia, Canada and USA (#1)?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

What about countries like Australia, Canada and USA (#1)?

Well actually the option is redded out and if you mouse over it you get "we're doing fine on our own"

 

[Benefactor]

What about countries like Australia, Canada and USA (#1)?

I'm all for creating the 'The European Union and Protectorates of Canada, Australia and America' .

 

[Traitorfish]

What else can one expect from a nationalist than the same old narrative of eternal nation states. Sigh.

Why is it anachronistic to talk in terms of nations, but not in terms of civilisational blocs?

 

[innonimatu]

I am for Europe united under a liberal, democratic, federative, and responsible government.

Hah! We're seeing what kind of responsibility and accountability the EU has enabled among the ruling classes.

What else can one expect from a nationalist than the same old narrative of eternal nation states. Sigh.

You can have instead imperial government, true... that can be effective at crushing resistance. But the EU so far has avoided popular referendums or ignored its results. I doubt it can get away with winning a civil war. In case you haven't noticed, Europe has had two big ones just in the past century and ended up with more countries, instead of less. The denial,fear&propaganda approach of the EU wont produce more solid results that the military approach.

If this latest economic crisis is telling us something, it's that the integration process doesn't keep up with the "market expectations", the pressure of real-world problems. Europe simply should have been a federation in 2009/2010.

Market expectations? Oh, you mean those real-world problems which were created by the European Union with its willful subservience to the so-called "markets"? Actually, to a trans-nacional financial elite accountable to no one and operating under (shielded by) international treaties like the ones which established the EU?

The EU is a direct cause of Europe's present problems, not a solution.

 

[bhsup]

Just FYI, Greenland is part of North America geographically. NO part of it, whatsoever, is part of Europe. So if you guys want Greenland, you lose all geographic arguments for Turkey being kept out of a united Europe.

 

[Benefactor]

Why is it anachronistic to talk in terms of nations, but not in terms of civilisational blocs?

Got to start somewhere, uniting the whole species at once would end in disaster .

 

[Leoreth]

Just FYI, Greenland is part of North America geographically. NO part of it, whatsoever, is part of Europe. So if you guys want Greenland, you lose all geographic arguments for Turkey being kept out of a united Europe.

Nah, you can have it

 

[Agarwaen]

Just FYI, Greenland is part of North America geographically. NO part of it, whatsoever, is part of Europe. So if you guys want Greenland, you lose all geographic arguments for Turkey being kept out of a united Europe.

They lost it with Cyprus already.

See some posts above, now they are talking about some ill defined european culture. With makes sense, Europe is little else than an Asian peninsula in geographic terms.