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The United States of Europe

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Civciv5, Feb 15, 2012.

?

Are you for a United Europe or against?

  1. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(including Russia)

    14.3%
  2. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European Union)(including Russia)

    14.3%
  3. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(excluding Russia)

    12.5%
  4. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European union)(excluding Russia)

    33.9%
  5. No,I'm against it

    25.0%
  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Arguing for European membership by appealing to national folklore. Great.
     
  2. muhtesem insan

    muhtesem insan Amateur Revolutionary

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    Some even say Turks and Greeks are same nation with different Religions. In population exchange of 1923 Turks who chose christianity have been seen as greeks and sent to greece. (same for muslim greeks). And this is expected, two peoples lived together for almost a millennium.
    I find the idea of "European Culture" is absurd. Greeks had much more interraction with Turks, Arabs and Persians than Germans or English. There's a cultural bind between mediterranean nations but not whole europe.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    ... so why, exactly, don't Greeks and Turks get along?
     
  4. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

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    It's about 50% nationalism, 48% historical irredentism and 2% real problems, like airspace violation.
     
  5. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Maybe Greece is still trying to claim Byzantine cores on Anatolia and Turkey is being just as unhelpful.
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Damn, that just proved his point, because Greece would've long lost these cores if the Turks wouldn't be in the same culture group :lol:
     
  7. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    I agree... and, take Catalyuna for example... or parts of Northern Italy... even within a country, when one group ends up, whether in reality or perception, pulling more of the load/paying more of the bills, etc... it builds up resent.
    On the international scale, Germany and the Northern Euro states are getting quite sick of the financial status of the Mediterranean States (outside of August vacation time anyhow).

    1)How many square kilometers of Turkey are in Europe?
    Roughly 5% of Turkey is in Europe, roughly 39,000 km2.
    2)How many square kilometers of Russia are in Europe?
    Almost 4,000,000 km2 (and 75% of the population lives in this area)

    Also, how much of Turkish culture is European?
    How much of Russian culture is European?

    The majority of Atlas's say this, but... see next part.

    Exactly... The island has been European for SOOOOO long culturally. The insane invasion by Turkey in 1974 aside.
     
  8. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    I am for Europe united under a liberal, democratic, federative, and responsible government.

    Eventually, the EU should include all European nations, yes.

    Fine with us - we'll be happy to provide it with a nice island far, far away where it can continue its business in peace while the British Isles are properly incorporated in the EU (I think we should call it the Province of Britannia again).

    You have my vote. Which book is that, btw?

    But 75% or so of it is culturally European, which is what matters.

    What else can one expect from a nationalist than the same old narrative of eternal nation states. Sigh.

    What's the "strict meaning" of a confederation? Because this is one of the least defined concept in international relations. I've always thought of it as a transitional state - either on the way to federation, or on the way towards independent nation states.

    If this latest economic crisis is telling us something, it's that the integration process doesn't keep up with the "market expectations", the pressure of real-world problems. Europe simply should have been a federation in 2009/2010.

    You're getting European money to stay afloat, you better sing to the European tune. I don't see what's so wrong about that.
     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    When I compare Turkish food to Greek food I see a lot of similarities. Music? Same thing.. Language? It all sounds the same to me
     
  10. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    I didn't mean to say there are no similarities.
    Heck, the ME in general has impacted Europe... and vice versa.

    But, I'd say the Greeks have had WAY more of an impact on the Turks than vice versa...
    And even the modern greeks don't have that much of an impact on Modern European culture in general... the modern Turks have way less (but still some).
     
  11. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    If it does, you must be deaf and blind. No offence ;)
     
  12. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    What about countries like Australia, Canada and USA (#1)?
     
  13. rugbyLEAGUEfan

    rugbyLEAGUEfan Deity

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    Well actually the option is redded out and if you mouse over it you get "we're doing fine on our own"
     
  14. Benefactor

    Benefactor Beneficial

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    I'm all for creating the 'The European Union and Protectorates of Canada, Australia and America' :D .
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Why is it anachronistic to talk in terms of nations, but not in terms of civilisational blocs?
     
  16. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Hah! We're seeing what kind of responsibility and accountability the EU has enabled among the ruling classes.

    You can have instead imperial government, true... that can be effective at crushing resistance. But the EU so far has avoided popular referendums or ignored its results. I doubt it can get away with winning a civil war. In case you haven't noticed, Europe has had two big ones just in the past century and ended up with more countries, instead of less. The denial,fear&propaganda approach of the EU wont produce more solid results that the military approach.

    Market expectations? Oh, you mean those real-world problems which were created by the European Union with its willful subservience to the so-called "markets"? Actually, to a trans-nacional financial elite accountable to no one and operating under (shielded by) international treaties like the ones which established the EU?

    The EU is a direct cause of Europe's present problems, not a solution.
     
  17. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Just FYI, Greenland is part of North America geographically. NO part of it, whatsoever, is part of Europe. So if you guys want Greenland, you lose all geographic arguments for Turkey being kept out of a united Europe.
     
  18. Benefactor

    Benefactor Beneficial

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    Got to start somewhere, uniting the whole species at once would end in disaster :) .
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Nah, you can have it :p
     
  20. Agarwaen

    Agarwaen King

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    They lost it with Cyprus already.

    See some posts above, now they are talking about some ill defined european culture. With makes sense, Europe is little else than an Asian peninsula in geographic terms.
     

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