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The US political divisions and the role of lies in the media - one case

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by innonimatu, Feb 17, 2021.

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Do you regret having fallen for the lies on this specific incident?

  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The thread about the Capitol Breached thing got closed here on mid-January. That had the unfortunate effect if preventing the debunking there of two now known lies told by the media at the time, and which featured preeminently on the discussions.

    But it occurs to me that these lies are a story by themselves, and more, a test of where that country is headed.

    Lie #1: the NYT claim that a police officer had been killed by being bashed on the head with a fire extinguished and "with a bloody gash in his head" was "rushed to the hospital and placed on life support".
    This was published on January 8, without evidence, and uncritically repeated in numerous other media. All of this narrative were lies.
    The only fact was that Sicknick indeed died hours after the events, without wounds and without any established correlation with what had happened in the Capitol.
    Why was this story planted? Was the NYT merely naive? If so why didn't they check in the following days, and instead kept up the lies?

    Lie #2: the plot to kidnapp congressmen: the zip ties that motivated those conspiracy theories had been picked up within the building, not brought by any of those who invaded it.

    So, based on these lies, shamelessly fed by most mainstream media when the subject was "hot", people here talked about "terrorism". About killing the invaders of the building, as indeed one was killed. Rather nasty things that without those excuses of being a "fight against an insurrection" would be considered dangerous hate speech. But because one party had already been falsely demonized as organized coup plotters and murderers, they were fair game?

    Most didn't even pause to consider "is it true?". Did you? Even though the media has been lying shamelessly about politics, since like forever? If someone could carry the Gulf of Tonkin incident and subscribe to the manufacture of a war that killed millions, if decades later they carried the "iraqui WMPD" lies, what's a little lie and incitement to keep sliding into a domestic police state with more home terrorism laws?

    So, to those who few for these two lies in the narrative presented then: do you regret having fallen for these lies? Will you exercise more caution on opinion in the future around controversial or suspicious matters until the dust clears, avoiding reaction on the hot media takes?
    Or can you rationalize away the examples because "Trump is bad and these deplorable deserve to be punished regardless"?

    Making a poll because I really think that this is the question which can best predict whether the US will keep its slide into a hellhole or will manage to reverse course and get out of it.

    I don't know whether this is still black humor or an accurate depiction of the mood there in February 2021! But I suspect it's becoming reality soon.
     
  2. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Something was presented as fact, at the time there was no reason to doubt it, and now information has emerged showing it was incorrect.
    It isn't so much as having 'fallen for a lie' as incorrect information was presented. 'Fallen for the lie' implies accurate information was available and circulating at the time which was dismissed in favor of the inaccurate information, and that the inaccurate information was intentionally presented as true. Greenwald, the champion conspiracy spinner who got fired from the media outlet he founded because he wouldn't accept editorial oversight, is only publishing this over a month after the incident occurred. My patience for Greenwald has declined markedly over the last few years and I didn't read the article super closely, but I didn't see anything that this was an intentionally false narrative distributed. Rather, the media missed a supplemental fact is a very large and fast moving story.
    And, at the end of the day, but for the militia cosplayers trying to storm the Capitol on behalf of a wanna-be dollar store El Presidente, Sicknick would be alive.
     
  3. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    1) A lot of the police officers suffered brain injuries, lack of helmets and other equipment.
    Once the results of the investigation into Stick death are concluded then record will likely be corrected as Police looking into how he died.

    2) Zip tie man was spotted on video earlier with the zip ties, and was videoed walking past capital police with the zip ties in hand. He totally "found" them and wanted to return them to police.

     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
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  4. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    Remember the lie of the guy dying by tasering himself in the balls while trying to steal a painting of Tip O'neil? Turns out the guy was never in the capitol.

    Remember the lie that Antifa was involved? Oh 'right', how could I forget, many still believe it.
     
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  5. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Ah, we're relying on Greenwald as a primary source, I see. Have you considered fact-checking Greenwald's claims considering he has a substantial axe to grind against one (or more) media establishments?

    Because it would be kinda ironic if Greenwald was being used uncritically as a source, given the topic.
     
  6. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Still wondering where Inno gets his real news about how Britain and the EU are performing false flag chemical attacks to frame Russia.

    Because even on subjects where he is right, (or at least staying within the boundaries of plausibility) you wonder where he is going next.
     
  7. Ironsided

    Ironsided Flower of happiness

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    Inno is maybe too confrontational but completely correct to lift the issue. Thank god for watchdogs like Greenwald watching the watchers. Good piece by him. It is disturbing to see giants like NYT so effortlessly slipping on standards and sliding into fake news territory to please a ‘noble’ agenda. But also, in the long run who is going to watch the watchdogs?

    Late stage capitalism baby! Everyone for themselves. Everyone and everything in corporate media have a price and is for sale which makes it impossible to know anything being at least with intent objectively reported in the end. Journalism in corporate media is in an untenable and borderline dystopian situation already and degrading.
     
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  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Yes, I have considered that. And done just that. For the first he relies on multiple media sources. Among which the fact that the NYT itself was finally forced to retract its most outrageous claims. And on the police statements. Whereas those initial claims of murder by fire extinguisher were based on... "two anonymous sources"? Absolutely NO ONE came forward to assume responsibility as a source for stating that.
    And how do you propose to prove a negative about a lie that had been made? A decree from the president?

    As for the second lie, the evidence comes from the drop of those accusations in prosecutions. If they never get made it's because there was no such evidence, or the defense (that they were not brought there deliberately) is accepted as true? Unless you want to claim that the current authorities are in on the conspiracy?

    Greenwald does list his sources. You are free to check. Have you even tried to do so?

    Read the NYT piece. Read its "amendment now", that came weeks after the claims had been shown false. You cannot claim that lies were not deliberately told, and deliberately maintained past the time necessary to check and amend them. Given how central this piece of the narrative was (the victim of the attack) you cannot pretend that laving the lie up was just oversight.That lie had been used in the impeachment proceedings! Only afterwards did the NYC "correct" it.
    It cannot have been unintentional. It cannot have been mere incompetence. The subject was too high-profile for that. And the mistakes on a "fast--moving story" excuse cannot excuse the fact that it was kept up for weeks past the events and kept being used for other political actions. Actions which kept the interest and focus on this false narrative.

    What Greenwald does is point out the lies that most people on the "liberal" side like. Hence he is branded by them an enemy. Never mind that he's fighting against the aspirations to domestic terrorism laws that would further carry the police state powers...
     
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  9. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    It is quite hard when the sources call it "blood libel".
     
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  10. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Why do you think this is? What does it mean?

    Thread title suggests that you have a take on this.
     
  11. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    The onus is on you to check the sources you provide as valid, considering the entire thread is about how bad the mainstream media apparently is. The onus is on you to work out exactly how disgruntled Greenwald has been recently, leading to bias that could colour his outlook.

    C'mon. If we're going to knock journalism, and there's plenty to knock, your first port of call shouldn't be "the guy who had a late 2020 meltdown". But he is, because he agrees with you, and that's all the qualification anyone needs to be cited in that regard. It's a common theme.

    Do the media get things wrong? Yes. Do specific publications weight stories to get clicks and thus revenue? Yes.

    Should you focus on two specific instances of this that conveniently play down the impact of the Capitol riots, citing Greenwald who raises Tucker Carlson as a positive force in discussing the alleged problem? I mean, you can, but the barest amount of introspection might be required. Is that too much to ask of you? Why Greenwald has run off to right-wing sources? Why he's talking up Tucker Carlson? Why you take no issue with sources that cite "blood libel" as a serious thing? No?
     
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  12. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    Is it a 'lie by the media' if that is what they were told?

    Even Fox News was reporting the officer was killed by the fire extinguisher, because that is what law enforcement was telling them at the time.

    Investigators now believe the bear spray in the face contributed to his death.
    Still, lays the blame at the feet of the mob.

    Edit:
    There were 2 people with zip-ties. (Munchel and Brock Jr.). I know Munchel is the more famous 'Zip Tie Guy', but did Brock bring in his own zip ties?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  13. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Media is geered towards sensaltionalism. All media. Because that sells.

    And there it is again. The media is mean because Trump bad. Now that's just bollocks. Case in point: Foxnews on the Texas power network failures. So, by all means, be critical of reporting, but drop the victim complex. The reason is the way we consume media. It has to be available seconds after the event. If you miss the attentionspan window, the consumer has moved on.

    Wrong. The calls for insurrection were not based on the death of that officer or one guy carrying zip ties. I am not sure if you noticed, but there were quite a few other things going on at the time. And added to that, only a few here talked about killing the invaders. So, I'm not going to call that a lie, but rather a misrepresentation. The more common sentiment was: oh, so the police do know how to defuse a situation, they should try that in other situations.

    Bit of irony there.


    Edit: my god that poll. Christ in a jar.

    Yes, I have stopped beating my wife
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  14. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Massive election fraud.
    Riots on Capitol Hill was Antifa!
    Texas coldsnap is proof there's no global warming and the power shortage can be blamed on windmills.

    Does he point out those lies as well? Or is he just interested in lies most people on his side don't like?
     
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  15. r16

    r16 not deity

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    and one must also understand the hold of America over the world ; America's reach and status as number 1 is slipping . They will cover up things to keep the status quo , which includes empowering BSS aka Trump with a story of how the media told lies about him . Supposedly 81% of the Republican voters favour him , can anyone expect the American State rock the boat any further , to end up on the brink of Civil War again ?
     
  16. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Most people who get fooled by the news feel regret.
    Like that Covington kid thing.
    https://thecoloradoherald.com/2021/disney-producer-jack-morrissey-maga-kids-to-the-wood-chipper/

    People need to focus on the larger point, the storming of Congress by an angry mob.

    Unlike antifa, none of them wore masks, so prosecution should be straightforward.


    And!
    5000 national guards have to stand there for the rest of their lives.

    This was the seat of power and our elected officials, not Sears :mad:


    Trump watching the glow of the TV, mesmerized by this thing like a pyro admiring the flames, was also a completely unacceptable response.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-was-watching-tv-while-riots-took-place-2021-1?op=1

    It should have been horror.
    Followed by picking up the phone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  17. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Ok, so I'm reading the article ...

    But Politifact had 2 reasons:
    It goes on to explain
    Spoiler :



    Nice glass house, shame about those windows.
     
  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I flat don't believe this zip-tie story, I don't care if he found the zipties in the Capitol, I don't believe his intentions were "benign," but I'm not surprised federal prosecutors are treating a right-winger with kid gloves.

    As for Brian Sicknick, there is evidently not much information available publicly, so it seems a bit premature to call the initial account of his death "lies."

    Perhaps ironically, I maintained all along that my problems were with the motives of the Capitol rioters and not so much their actions.

    Sadly all this article really proves is that Glenn Greenwald has descended further into hackery, and is willing to do exactly what he criticizes the media for doing: tell lies for clicks and attention. I will be more charitable than he and you are being, and concede that maybe they aren't lies, since Glenn's understanding of events in the US is filtered through Twitter, since he lives in Brazil.
     
  19. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I too have doubts about the zip-tie story, but the point that doubts exist should have precluded its use in hastily passing judgement. It just could not be exploited the way it was, as evidence of the premeditated and terrorist intentions of that invasion.

    And the other story is even worse: the policeman vilely murdered by the Trump mob. That was one of the basis of the impeachment attempt even after this bashing to death with a fire extinguisher narrative was exposed as false. So: no retraction.

    As for Greenwald, the reason I trust him is the fact that he accepted real risks to speak up as he does. HE lives in a country where inconvenient people do get murdered unless they have very good protection, and he gave up the protection of status and corporate job to be able to continue to do journalism uncensored by his employer.

    Who is law enforcement? As in who exactly was the source for these claims? Casualties among the police are not a subject that requires sources to be protected. So the media had no reason to quote "anonymous sources".
    When and where did the police as an institution, or someone personally identifiable and quoted as such, made a claim that a policeman had been killed with a fire extinguisher?

    Thy problem here is that the media is doing "news" as entertainment, free to make it up in order to attract audience. And the get away with it when exploiting politics because partisanship always gives them a pass, they just have to pick which half they want to cater from. And what the hell, the same owner can set up two difference news stations and cater to both halves!
    This happens to be the perfect case to illustrate the problem because it shows the resistance of people to hold the media accountable for a lie when they happen to like that lie. Basically you get the media you asked for... it isn't just the right-wing and Breitbart or whatever It's both wings.

    @Gorbles I don't need to pile up on the guy who had a late 2020 meltdown because there's plenty of people busy doing that already. While lots of other bad stuff get a pass or worse, are cheered on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  20. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I'm not asking you to pile up on anything. I'm asking you to do due diligence in a thread you started about the nature of truth in political journalism.

    Greenwald is still a journalist. Him rage-quitting a job doesn't change that. Living in Brazil doesn't magically put him at "real risk". Money protects money. If you think he doesn't hasn't money for his grift, I have no idea what to tell you.
     
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