danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
You certainly give the CIA more credit for efficiently disposing of documents than I would.
The USA Deep State
- Thread starter Lexicus
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KaibaCorp
Warlord
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Is that more plausible and less of a leap than an anti-social type who likes guns killing someone for nihilistic/selfish reasons? If you ever read about his life, he was a lonely unsuccessful guy. Only thing separating him from modern incels is he had a wife.
We see that all the time nowadays, Oswald was just an early prototype.
We see that all the time nowadays, Oswald was just an early prototype.
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amadeus
✻ Come on down! ✻
If they wanted to scare Kennedy into attacking Cuba, why would they get a Marine sharpshooter who wasn’t even Cuban?
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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There is a deep state, there has been since Truman failed to dismantle it after WW2. Spooks and moneyed interests, with the spooks recruiting from among the wealthy's offspring and their manservants. The US copied the british "deep state" model while it set about capturing as much as it could of the British Empire as its spere of influence.
The reason why the US version of deep state is so often missed is its innefectiveness at doing anything coherent. As with any ruling group that gets ideas of imperial dominion and some success at it, it grew too much. Wealth and power allowed for faccionalism to run wild. And the elites always over-produce themselves. So it's innefective because it so often works at cross purposes. There's plenty of secret plots constantly brewing, being executed in a half-assed way, and being discarded, but no plan. Only constants are the aspirations at world hegemony and the strategy of looking strong in order to cower vassals and so be able to play imperial overlords. Hence a PNAC but a defeat in Iraq. Hence Trump's zigzaing. etc. It's a clownish deep state. Terminal disease of empires.
The reason why the US version of deep state is so often missed is its innefectiveness at doing anything coherent. As with any ruling group that gets ideas of imperial dominion and some success at it, it grew too much. Wealth and power allowed for faccionalism to run wild. And the elites always over-produce themselves. So it's innefective because it so often works at cross purposes. There's plenty of secret plots constantly brewing, being executed in a half-assed way, and being discarded, but no plan. Only constants are the aspirations at world hegemony and the strategy of looking strong in order to cower vassals and so be able to play imperial overlords. Hence a PNAC but a defeat in Iraq. Hence Trump's zigzaing. etc. It's a clownish deep state. Terminal disease of empires.
Please define what you mean by "deep state".
Lexicus
Deity
Another thing is the amount of contact he had with figures in what we might nowadays refer to as the "intelligence community."
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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The class formed by the professional spooks paid by the state. Is it 18 or 20 intelligence agencies now? Does the new internal masked police roaming the strees count as a new one?
The military, excluding the politically-minded officers who put themselves forward to staff this official underworld, apperas (to me as an ouside observer) to have a history of behaving itself within the formal frame of government. I don't think they're part of the same class. They do stare a belief in their ability to ser state policy but ultimately defer to the politicians.
This are complicated by teh fact that many agency staff are the offspring of politicians. And vice-versa. It's not a unique US problem. The thing in the US is that all thsoe staffing these agencies have a big budget and real power to play with state policy.
The military, excluding the politically-minded officers who put themselves forward to staff this official underworld, apperas (to me as an ouside observer) to have a history of behaving itself within the formal frame of government. I don't think they're part of the same class. They do stare a belief in their ability to ser state policy but ultimately defer to the politicians.
This are complicated by teh fact that many agency staff are the offspring of politicians. And vice-versa. It's not a unique US problem. The thing in the US is that all thsoe staffing these agencies have a big budget and real power to play with state policy.
Lexicus
Deity
???? These are the immigration enforcers! The agency has existed since the early Bush administration! They are doing the policy of "repressing immigrants" that you said was necessary to restore democratic politics away from the grip of international finance capital!
Zardnaar
Deity
Well its nice to see far left has similar conspiracy theories to the far right.
Horseshoe theory yet again.
Horseshoe theory yet again.
Lexicus
Deity
I mean the difference is that there is no cabal of Jews controlling the world, but COINTELPRO did actually happen!
KaibaCorp
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I'd be careful with this. Most chatter I see about this is just wrong or fantastical and fed by grifting lying hacks like Jim Garrison.
Yuri Nosenko (a Russian who eventually defected to the US) was assigned and supervised the KGB file on Oswald during his time in the USSR. He says the Russians correctly judged Oswald and his wife as useless and harmless to them (re: being an American spy or something) and ultimately approved him and her to return to the US. That's it really. And Oswald's one visit to the embassy in Mexico City trying to emigrate to Cuba. It's been a while since I read about this stuff but anything asserted past these two folks is probably conspiracy lore-crafting.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Didn't you compare children being bombed to a sex toy?
Zardnaar
Deity
Not that I recall
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Zardnaar
Deity
FAFO would be another way of expressing it.
Hamas deliberately decided to attack in effect trading civilian lives for political gains.
amadeus
✻ Come on down! ✻
Getting back to the case of Oswald, I think his contact with both the KGB and FBI is resultant not from him being valuable, but from him being a grifter who sought a comfortable life and/or attention.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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No they're not immigration enforcers. It's easy to enforce an immigration policy and that doesn't involve masked police roaming around. Fine the businees employing (importing) the immigrants. Control the borders.
Whatever its name, whatever it was, this is now a militia trying to set up an excuse for a civil war. I'll grant you: Trump has gone nuts this second time. He's crashing the US even faster than Gorbachev crashed the USSR. That I didn't expect. I expected slowish decline with increased internal looting as the external ones gets more difficult, but not deliberaty going for civil war.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
That's the point, this was never about immigration in the first place, this was about establishing a police state.
Voidwalkin
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Can it be said that the Deep State is really just the most prevalent political/cultural opinion of the people in power?
1945-1975, prevalent opinion amongst the ruling class is sort of rigidly socially hierarchal, yet somewhat humane(relative to past eras). Concerned mostly with promotion of capitalism in foreign policy(often ruthlessly) and establishing a sort of humane(but ultimately not egalitarian) policy domestically.
1975-present the prevalent opinion amongst this group is more benign in both foreign and domestic policy, with expectations to be increasingly so, especially amongst the well educated, though there are blips in this trajectory, led most often by conservative reactionaries: Bush Jr in Iraq, but most especially Trump, who harnessed populist yearnings for hierarchy amongst the less educated to effectively secure power and begin uprooting those with stake in and belonging to the prevalent ruling class culture.
What makes his fissure with the deep state(which I do think is just prevalent opinion of the well educated, mostly) so prominent is simply that he has done so on domestic issues, something not done previously, not even by Bush Jr. The nativist and hierarchal streaks have always been there, they were just sorta muted for a time, lesser in volume.
1945-1975, prevalent opinion amongst the ruling class is sort of rigidly socially hierarchal, yet somewhat humane(relative to past eras). Concerned mostly with promotion of capitalism in foreign policy(often ruthlessly) and establishing a sort of humane(but ultimately not egalitarian) policy domestically.
1975-present the prevalent opinion amongst this group is more benign in both foreign and domestic policy, with expectations to be increasingly so, especially amongst the well educated, though there are blips in this trajectory, led most often by conservative reactionaries: Bush Jr in Iraq, but most especially Trump, who harnessed populist yearnings for hierarchy amongst the less educated to effectively secure power and begin uprooting those with stake in and belonging to the prevalent ruling class culture.
What makes his fissure with the deep state(which I do think is just prevalent opinion of the well educated, mostly) so prominent is simply that he has done so on domestic issues, something not done previously, not even by Bush Jr. The nativist and hierarchal streaks have always been there, they were just sorta muted for a time, lesser in volume.
Bestbank Tiger
Deity
I would agree. It isn't so much a cabal secretly micromanaging. It's powerful interests, some of whom have agendas independent from each other, corrupting our institutions.
