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The Zulu

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Stangle Khan, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Do you currently warmonger with Zulu Longswords? They feel plenty strong to me and they would just as strong as they are now.

    I also can warmonger early on just fine without swordsmen. I think getting your powerspike a lot earlier is a huge advantage.
     
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I do currently warmonger with longswords and swordsmen. I feel like it's the best way to play Zulu. Zulu swordsmen are very strong and feel great to use. The free drill is a huge boost over spearmen and allow you to go further down both lines. They can get so crazy with their reduced XP requirements.

    I don't feel like I need the boost from Impi earlier. I feel like Tercio often the start of the decline of powerful melee units, and Impi add a ton of longevity to a civ that needs more staying power, not earlier power.
     
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  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Swordsmen do not get drill for free and they never have.

    Alhambra used to give to to both spears and swords but no longer does.
     
  4. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    @CrazyG How do you feel about the current Alhambra? I preferred the one that gave Drill I.
     
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  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I usually don't even build it unless I have a knight UU.

    Even then I don't always build it, for similar reasons to not building a barracks before horsemen rushing. It slows down your aggression a lot.
     
  6. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Derp, I meant free shock. Point still stands that it's a free promotion on a unit already much stronger than spearmen.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They don't have free shock either. It's a free cover I now. Are you playing an older version?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    If we feel that the Zulu need a buff, I'd be fine with letting tier 4 promotions unlock after you take the third of the buffalo promotions.
     
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  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Just tier 4 or other promos that would have been unlocked as well? (I.e., City Assault which unlocks after Drill II.)

    If we did this, would the AI be taught to take the Buffalo promotion line? I'm not sure that they do now.

    I'm in favor of this buff.
     
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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    im in favour of this buff; make the buffalo line act like a tree, like any other line. However, I have cooled on my initial idea.

    the buffalo line’s last promotion is only at lvl 3, because you get the first one for free. So it’s comparable to drill/shock II. Consequently, I think it would be fair if buffalo III only unlocked tier 2 leaf promotions: woodsman, medic, cover, city assault, ambush, formation. In other words, I don’t think the buffalo line should unlock the really big promotions (stalwart, overrun, mobility, march), because it’s just too fast. Other civs need 100xp to get stalwart. Zulu would only need 45xp, if buffalo was made a prereq

    edit: however, I will reiterate that I think the buffalo line itself could stand a bit of sprucing up. The order of the promotions is wrong, and they aren’t thematically accurate right now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm fine with editing the 'flow' of the promotions, just point me to what you want it to be.

    For the tier promotions, I'll look.
     
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  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I've not played a ton recently. Can't believe I didn't notice that change tho lol. I guess since I always go Drill on my swordsmen I didn't really notice that they had the option of shock 1 instead of shock 2.
     
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That's a major improvement and would fix the core of what has been wrong with Zulu for a LONG time. Getting cheaper promotions but having a dead-end line that is either very worth picking and kinda OP or underpowered and a trap to pick in many cases has always felt kinda anti synergistic.

    They may need some yields somewhere, because they feel extremely all-in on the warmongering. Even if we fix tribute, I don't think the bonus will support their long-term stability the same way Skolas, Floating Gardens, or Eki do for other powerful warmongers.

    That said I wouldn't cry over needing to wait until the dust settles from one change before looking at another.
     
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  14. Drakle

    Drakle Warlord

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    What if the Zulu unique promotions were changed so that only 1 could be picked, but each is individually more powerful? That would allow going down a normal tree immediately after, and with the Zulu EXP bonus, they wouldn't be set back.

    Buffalo Horns, Buffalo Chest and Buffalo Loins all describe the role of separate units in battle. The flank, the bulk of the army, and the reserve.

    So for example,

    Each would have +10% strength, just like a normal Drill/Shock Promotion.
    Maybe also +10% defence against ranged attacks

    Than the unique
    Horns would have an extra movement point.

    Chest would have extra unit health. 20+ HP maybe?

    While Loins would have stronger combat strength against wounded units, as the reserve.

    So you have the Horns to sweep around the enemy formation, Chest as the damage sponge, and Loins to finish the job.
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    In a previous post I outlined a proposal.

    TL;DR:
    Chest -> Horns -> Loins (The promotion icons are already coloured silver->gold in this order)
    • Chest should have a defense bonus (HP or something)
    • Horns should have a flanking bonus
    • Loins should have the movement bonus
    I think it's a cool idea, but:
    • Maybe too complex, and it would probably be really easy to lose track of which units are your loins/horns/chest, and use them accordingly. Probably too tedious for the average human, let alone an AI player
    • mutually exclusive promotions is new code.
     
  16. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    @pineappledan

    I'd like Zulu infantry to have access to the powerful level 4 promos. Mainly stalwart and march. (I don't use overrun as much, but I'm sure its powerful. I doubt we'd see too many mobility zulu units.) But if we make it a pure tree into the level 3 promos, would Zulu units get to those other promos? Even with the XP reduction, getting that many promos takes a lot. Infantry units can also have difficulty earning a ton of XP after the early game because infantry units fall off in terms of their survivability on offense.

    Zulu Impis with the buffalo line and march or stalwart would be fun. Powerful? Maybe. But every civilization should be powerful at certain points.

    My benchmark for this is Sweden's units. For Sweden, they get the bonuses to mounted melee also, and a bonus to artillery. Zulu gets the reduction in XP for all units (and Sweden gets XP for all units), but we're only talking about the infantry line here. The infantry line also falls off in impact as the game goes on.

    I have no position with regards to the flow of the Zulu promotions. If the Zulu promotions are meant to be a huge part of the Zulu UA, and define what it means to warmonger as Zulu, then the human player, and the AI, should basically want to take the Buffalo line promotions above all other promotions, and Zulu shouldn't lose out by doing so.
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Would it be possible to just add another Zulu promotion, so that they must take 3 Buffalo stuff, then reaching march/blitz/whatever at the 4th?

    If we do I propose we name it Buffalo chicken
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    This is my opinion. Zulu's buffalo line promotions should be strong enough that they are a no-brainer vs. the base promotions.

    I'm not suggesting Zulu be barred access to the tier 4 leaf promotions, I simply don't agree that they should get access to multiple tier 4 promotions at less than half the total XP that other civs do. There's plenty of ways to specialize Buffalo if it gave access to every possible tier 2 and 3 leaf promotion, and you gave them access to all split tier 3/4 promotions (eg. woodsman is a tier 3 shock promotion, but a tier 4 drill promotion).
    The buffalo promotions have an actual historical basis, so I would be against simply "making something up"
    You could give something at the front though. Like, Ikanda could give an "Iklwa" promotion, which unlocks Buffalo Chest / Horns / Loins
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just throwing this more radical idea out there. What if like the Celts and their pantheon, the Zulu's buffalo line actually replaced the shock line? It is literally designed as a better shock line for them to have. And then they unlock the shock leaf promotions just as normal, so Buffalo 3 would be equivalent to Shock 3 for advanced promotions.

    Or you go even one step further. Buffalo replaces BOTH shock and drill (maybe gets the combined bonuses of both...maybe not at full values but gets a combination of benefits from both lines)...and then got the leaf elements of both sides.

    So now you have Zulu players that can tailor their units like Theodora tailors her Religion. A unit that could in theory get City Assault and March in a "reasonable, but still difficult" timespan. The ultimate in unit promotion flexibility.
     
  20. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    It sounds like @ElliotS goes Drill line on infantry units, if he was doing so with Drill I even on Swords when they had a free Shock. I do the same. My normal promotion line for infantry melee units is Drill I - Drill II - City Assault - Drill III - Stalwart - Cover I - Cover II then... mobility? I suspect that most melee infantry units are promoted to be able to take incoming fire.

    Zulu infantry may be able to play a little differently, by being 3 move infantry, but in the later game they still want access to city assault and stalwart, if they are to be effective against cities and survive focus fire from enemy units that have anti-warmonger bonuses.

    I don't have an issue with access to the Tier 4 promotions being pushed to being behind a genuine 3rd promotion for Zulu, since they also have reduced XP. (As opposed to the Hunnic Archers who get a free Accuracy I.)
     

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