The Zulu

[pineappledan]

It is literally designed as a better shock line for them to have.

This is why I want to alter Buffalo Chest, and put all the flanking bonuses on Horns. It's thematically and historically more accurate, and makes the line seem less like a knock-off shock line.

Just throwing this more radical idea out there. What if like the Celts and their pantheon, the Zulu's buffalo line actually replaced the shock line?

Or you go even one step further. Buffalo replaces BOTH shock and drill (maybe gets the combined bonuses of both...maybe not at full values but gets a combination of benefits from both lines)...and then got the leaf elements of both sides.

Essentially a mutually exclusive promotion line. This would combine strangely with early game units. What if your starting warrior levels up before Ikanda? You'd either have to tie the buffalo promotion to the UA, so it's available at level 1, or you have a situation where people might delay Ikanda to get extra shock/drill promos.
If you did this, you would also have a net loss of 3 possible promotions for infantry on a civ that levels up 33% faster. I'd worry about running out of promotions.
regardless, I doubt G would entertain solutions that require new code.

Drill line on infantry units, if he was doing so with Drill I even on Swords when they had a free Shock. I do the same. My normal promotion line for infantry melee units is Drill I - Drill II - City Assault - Drill III - Stalwart - Cover I - Cover II then... mobility? I suspect that most melee infantry units are promoted to be able to take incoming fire.

I mean... This amounts to personal preference. The Zulu don't need to conform to your preferred playstyle in order to be valid. There are other civs like Iroquois that have abilities to augment conventional infantry promotion lines.

I don't have an issue with access to the Tier 4 promotions being pushed to being behind a genuine 3rd promotion for Zulu, since they also have reduced XP. (As opposed to the Hunnic Archers who get a free Accuracy I.)

I would feel a lot better about Buffalo giving access to tier 4 promotions if it was at 75XP instead of 45XP. 45XP is just soooo low. That's low enough that if you managed to get a religion with orders, you would have tier 4 promotions on newly built units at Steel.

I'm liking the idea of adding an "ibutho", or "iklwa" promotion as the free promotion granted by Ikanda, so that we can move the 3 buffalo promotions into a lvl 2/3/4 unlock. This moves the XP requirements back enough that you could justify putting tier 4 leaf promotion onto the buffalo tree. How about this?

• Free - Iklwa - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense. Gives access to a unique promotion line
• tier 1 - Buffalo Chest - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15HP
• tier 2 - Buffalo Horns - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 10% Flanking Bonus
  
• tier 3 - Buffalo Loins - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 50% Bonus vs Cities, +1 Movement

On completion of that three, you would have 20%CS / 20% Ranged Defense, 10% Flanking, 50% vs cities, and 1 move.
In comparison to Drill and Shock, that would be 2/3 of their respective CS/Flanking/Cities bonus, with an additional 20% Range defense and +1 move

 

[Gazebo]

Done. New starter promotion and Zulu tier '3' promotion will link into drill/shock tier 3 stuff.

 

[tothePAIN]

Done. New starter promotion and Zulu tier '3' promotion will link into drill/shock tier 3 stuff.

Can the Zulu Tier 3 promotion also link into Drill / Shock Tier 2 stuff? Access to city assault promo is pretty huge too, and its behind Drill II.

This is why I want to alter Buffalo Chest, and put all the flanking bonuses on Horns. It's thematically and historically more accurate, and makes the line seem less like a knock-off shock line.

I mean... This amounts to personal preference. The Zulu don't need to conform to your preferred playstyle in order to be valid. There are other civs like Iroquois that have abilities to augment conventional infantry promotion lines.

Iroquois just have swordsmen, and woodsman promos. Not sure how that conforms to a preferred playstyle. I stnad by my statement that the infantry line favors drill, particularly after city assault. There may be room for a portion that has shock, but if the Buffalo line doesn't give access to city assault, I'm going to have to build Drill II city assault units to get it, because it is that good.

Overall, this seems like a great change.

 

[Rekk]

im in favour of this buff; make the buffalo line act like a tree, like any other line. However, I have cooled on my initial idea.

the buffalo line’s last promotion is only at lvl 3, because you get the first one for free. So it’s comparable to drill/shock II. Consequently, I think it would be fair if buffalo III only unlocked tier 2 leaf promotions: woodsman, medic, cover, city assault, ambush, formation. In other words, I don’t think the buffalo line should unlock the really big promotions (stalwart, overrun, mobility, march), because it’s just too fast. Other civs need 100xp to get stalwart. Zulu would only need 45xp, if buffalo was made a prereq

edit: however, I will reiterate that I think the buffalo line itself could stand a bit of sprucing up. The order of the promotions is wrong, and they aren’t thematically accurate right now.

Buffalo III could unlock Shock III and Drill III, which would pave the way for the rest of the other leaf promotions.

But the free starter promotion and adjustment to the other promotions that you suggested later is better, especially if they unlock all of the leaf promotions by themselves at the relevant tiers.

 

[ElliotS]

How about this?

• Free - Iklwa - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense. Gives access to a unique promotion line
• tier 1 - Buffalo Chest - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15HP
• tier 2 - Buffalo Horns - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 10% Flanking Bonus
  
• tier 3 - Buffalo Loins - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 50% Bonus vs Cities, +1 Movement

On completion of that three, you would have 20%CS / 20% Ranged Defense, 10% Flanking, 50% vs cities, and 1 move.
In comparison to Drill and Shock, that would be 2/3 of their respective CS/Flanking/Cities bonus, with an additional 20% Range defense and +1 move

I really like where these changes are and am happy to see how Zulu fair with this and hopefully tribute being fixed.

That said these bonuses feel too... fair.

It feels like the Zulu's unique promotion line should have more bite.

Maybe something like this:

• Free - Iklwa - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15HP. Gives access to a unique promotion line
• tier 1 - Buffalo Chest - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, +5 HP healed for self
  
• tier 2 - Buffalo Horns - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15% Flanking Bonus
  
• tier 3 - Buffalo Loins - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 75% Bonus vs Cities, +1 Movement

My biggest problem with your idea is that a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually lose a fight to a regular swordsman with shock 3. Similarly a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually do less city damage than a swordsman with drill 3.

Is the benefit of the +1 movement and 20% ranged defense worth 10% CS and either 25% city damage or 5% flanking? Most of the time I think, but not by much. Not by a unique amount to me.

 

[InkAxis]

My biggest problem with your idea is that a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually lose a fight to a regular swordsman with shock 3. Similarly a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually do less city damage than a swordsman with drill 3.

But on average Zulu would have way more of these units as they get promotions easier. I think we should play with this change a little and see how it is.

 

[tothePAIN]

I really like where these changes are and am happy to see how Zulu fair with this and hopefully tribute being fixed.

That said these bonuses feel too... fair.

It feels like the Zulu's unique promotion line should have more bite.

Maybe something like this:

• Free - Iklwa - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15HP. Gives access to a unique promotion line
• tier 1 - Buffalo Chest - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, +5 HP healed for self
  
• tier 2 - Buffalo Horns - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15% Flanking Bonus
  
• tier 3 - Buffalo Loins - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 75% Bonus vs Cities, +1 Movement

My biggest problem with your idea is that a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually lose a fight to a regular swordsman with shock 3. Similarly a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually do less city damage than a swordsman with drill 3.

Is the benefit of the +1 movement and 20% ranged defense worth 10% CS and either 25% city damage or 5% flanking? Most of the time I think, but not by much. Not by a unique amount to me.

I agree with this at least partially - the promos should be 10%. We're comparing this to Sweden, who gets a +20% on attack.

 

[CrazyG]

I think Dan's strucutre is right but the numbers are a touch too low

 

[ICanHasName?]

I kindof like the idea of +hp unit bonuses. They arent used very much, but are very strong for keeping units alive. It also differentiates them from every other civ and unit and policy and wonder with a +% cs bonus.

Kindof fits the civs theme of tough, tanky, honorable melee fighters.

 

[Rekk]

I really like where these changes are and am happy to see how Zulu fair with this and hopefully tribute being fixed.

That said these bonuses feel too... fair.

It feels like the Zulu's unique promotion line should have more bite.

Maybe something like this:

• Free - Iklwa - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15HP. Gives access to a unique promotion line
• tier 1 - Buffalo Chest - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, +5 HP healed for self
  
• tier 2 - Buffalo Horns - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 15% Flanking Bonus
  
• tier 3 - Buffalo Loins - 5% CS, 5% Ranged Defense, 75% Bonus vs Cities, +1 Movement

My biggest problem with your idea is that a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually lose a fight to a regular swordsman with shock 3. Similarly a zulu swordsman with Lions would actually do less city damage than a swordsman with drill 3.

Is the benefit of the +1 movement and 20% ranged defense worth 10% CS and either 25% city damage or 5% flanking? Most of the time I think, but not by much. Not by a unique amount to me.

Not to detract from your point too much, but the average Zulu unit will also have another promotion since they earn experience at 133% the rate of other civilizations. So they'd have all 4 of these promotions (free + 3 buffalos) plus a tier 4 or other leaf promotion, while the equivalent other melee unit would only have shock/drill III.

 

[ElliotS]

But on average Zulu would have way more of these units as they get promotions easier. I think we should play with this change a little and see how it is.

Not to detract from your point too much, but the average Zulu unit will also have another promotion since they earn experience at 133% the rate of other civilizations. So they'd have all 4 of these promotions (free + 3 buffalos) plus a tier 4 or other leaf promotion, while the equivalent other melee unit would only have shock/drill III.

How about I put it like this so my point is more clear:

Zulu Swordsman with Loins would be worse than Zulu swordsman with drill at taking cities. (Esp if City Assault is not make available after #3.)

Zulu swordsman with shock would have higher flanking CS than Zulu swordsman with Loins. (Though the +1 move can arguably make up for the lost CS.)

Also remember that the free promotion would be with shock or drill too, so you're actually behind by 15% CS if you went with Dan's Buffalo promotions.

It was said that the promotions should be a no-brainer, and I'm inclined to agree. It's one of their unique things. I think Dan's suggestion is 90% on the mark, but just a little under-tuned.

 

[azum4roll]

I think if people start going for Drill just because City Assault is strong, it's time to move the promotion back, or nerf the numbers. Now it seems City Assault is more prioritized than Stalwart/Extra Move.

Back on topic, is it too strong if the Buffalo promotions are equal to both Shock and Drill combined, so there's absolutely no reason to take those instead?

 

[CrazyG]

I realize that potentially a unit with different promotions would be better a specific niche (like attacking cities). Does it matter if a unique trait is worse in a really narrow circumstance though?

Even in a really narrow circustance are they even worse? Like even if my opponent was pure cities and flanking never mattered, the Zulu still have +1 movement, +15 HP and protection against ranged attacks.

 

[tothePAIN]

I realize that potentially a unit with different promotions would be better a specific niche (like attacking cities). Does it matter if a unique trait is worse in a really narrow circumstance though?

Even in a really narrow circustance are they even worse? Like even if my opponent was pure cities and flanking never mattered, the Zulu still have +1 movement, +15 HP and protection against ranged attacks.

Why can't the Buffalo line promos just be +10%? 3 upgrades (45 xp) + the free one gets them to having a raw +35% to their combat strength. At 45 xp, Sweden has 2 upgrades, say Drill I and II, for +20% and gets +20% bonuses to attack. We're talking about infantry units only here.

City assault is as good as it is because of the reduction from damage from cities, which remain a significant source of damage.

 

[pineappledan]

G has already made the change he is going to make for this version, so we really are only debating a hypothetical for some September patch here.

I see no reason why, in addition to ranged defense, hp and movement, Buffalo also needs to completely eclipse both the shock and drill lines combined with only 37% of the XP. This is a ridiculous overcorrection, appealing to minuscule corner cases that are more than compensated for by everything else the buffalo line gives.

I am more interested in moving the discussion into unstacking Impis and caroleans by moving one of them back to fusilier. Probably caroleans. The core of this conversation has been a need to differentiate these two pure warmongers more.

 

[tothePAIN]

G has already made the change he is going to make for this version, so we really are only debating a hypothetical for some September patch here.

I see no reason why, in addition to ranged defense, hp and movement, Buffalo also needs to completely eclipse both the shock and drill lines combined with only 37% of the XP. This is a ridiculous overcorrection, appealing to minuscule corner cases that are more than compensated for by everything else the buffalo line gives.

I am more interested in moving the discussion into unstacking Impis and caroleans by moving one of them back to fusilier. Probably caroleans. The core of this conversation has been a need to differentiate these two pure warmongers more.

If Zulu infantry are all 3 move infantry going buffalo line, I think they've been differentiated sufficiently. Sweden doesn't tend to promote infantry to 3 move infantry.

Zulu's are 100% war. Sweden is a little less war, because of Skolas.

The XP game for both of them is a little different. Sweden wants to build a core army and upgrade it through Great Generals. Zulu can take advantage of the XP reduction throughout the game but can struggle to get max XP to its units in the same way Sweden does.

 

[chicorbeef]

This would probably warrant a buffalo promotion nerf, but is it reasonable if the Zulu promotions were obtained for free when promoted normally? So you could get the full buffalo line after 2 promotions (again, we'll probably have to nerf the promotions)? That solves any conflict with Drill/Shock.

 

[pineappledan]

Only just found out. Why is Zulu's maintenance modifier 50% for UNITCOMBAT_MELEE, but only 25% for UNITCOMBAT_GUN?

The UA says only 25% maintenance reductions for both; why not increase both to 50% and have the UA text accurately communicate that? People have been complaining that the Zulu don't have enough economic benefits already, so increasing their maintenance reduction helps with that.

 

[azum4roll]

The 50% is vanilla, so I guess they just forgot an UPDATE.

 

[Drakle]

An idea. What if Zulu had general reduced maintenance, and no maintenance for units on enemy territory/pillaged tiles. It is an economic boost, and one linked to warfare. And fits with the historical Mfecane, better than a tribute bonus. I would prefer enemy territory, as pillaged territory would be a bit harder to use and remember, and would discourage earlier war when the AI sometimes has not built many improvements. And links with the new EXP mechanic.