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The Zulu

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Stangle Khan, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I don't even think Iklwa needs to do anything except serve as a prereq for the rest of the line. You are guaranteed the first buffalo promotion from the Ikanda's XP

    How about this?
    • Buffalo Chest: 15% CS, 20HP
    • Buffalo Horns: 15% CS, 20% Flanking
    • Buffalo Loins: 15% CS, 1 Move
     
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I hate filler promotions. Despite it being nearly identical I'd massively prefer
    • Iklwa: 5% CS, 10HP
    • Buffalo Chest: 10% CS, 10HP
    • Buffalo Horns: 15% CS, 20% Flanking
    • Buffalo Loins: 15% CS, 1 Move
    I've yet to try new Zulu, so no opinion on if needed tho.
     
  3. Antix

    Antix Chieftain

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    I have probably played 30+ Immortal and a couple Deity games with the Zulus on the 3-15 Beta Version, so i think i have a pretty good understanding of how this civ works and i honestly think that the recent buffs were targetting the wrong problems.

    25% less experience required for promotions for all units + 50% reduced maintance for melee/gun units + Impis gaining extra EXP from the Spear Throw Promotion ( 5EXP + 2EXP on standard ) is already a S+ Tier combination for a warmonger in general, they didn't need an even stronger unique promotion line (that currently also grants them more EXP).

    The actual issues is in my opinion are:

    Ikanda:
    1. +2 to the Military Unit Supply Cap is not really needed. At the point Impis come online, i don't need 70+ Military Unit Supply Cap, when i already have an army of 30-40 well promoted units and 5 Longswordsman and 2 Trebs can capture a city. Your unique ability "Your military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States" is way too weak to justify spamming units just for the sake of tributing and most of the time it makes no sense to create very massive army, because most maps are too restrictive to move all those units around.
    2. Navigating a very large army around the map is annoying. Really really annoying. Believe me.
    3. +1 :c5culture: Culture, meh.
    Besides the unique Buffalo Promotion, the Ikanda throws some "warmonger-stuff" at you, that you don't really need, because your Unique Ability already does soo much for you.

    Impi:
    The Zulus are heavily geared towards a domination victory and are only really good at that.
    The Impi is super strong, but gets unlocked at Gunpowder, which is very late for a warmonger and leaves too much time for other civs to snowball. Top-tier warmongers must have the ability to snowball the game in the early-mid game, especially on higher difficulties.

    Unique ability:
    "Your military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States" - It's OK in the early game if you manage to get a couple big tributes, but this ability is map dependant, unreliable and becomes useless pretty fast in to the game, not to mention that pissing off your neigbours for a 50 Gold tribute is most of the time not worth it.
    Tributing isn't that strong in general, even if you are a warmonger. If you ally a city-state, you dont have to bother with moving spare units around to tribute, you get consistent yields and you get an additional AI army that can distract your enemy. I dont think i have ever won a domination game where i didnt have at least 3-5 allied CS.
     
  4. ICanHasName?

    ICanHasName? Warlord

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    I think it's ok that not every civ has early bonuses. Zulu is exceptionally strong once they get their stuff, if you only get some bonus gold and tribute before that I dont really see a problem.

    In fact in general I'd like to see a couple more civs with late game power and tough early games and see how that goes. It seems like a design space that hasnt been explored as much in this mod.
     
    JungleBucks and ElliotS like this.
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Check Canada and Timurids, And to a lesser extent Israel.
     
  6. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'm fine with Zulu as they are now. They're strong but take a bit to get on line. I compared them to Korea previously - they can become a runaway warmonger.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  8. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    The +2XP can be easily gamed by leaving troops inside a defeated city-state or civ when the troops are not at war, and I don't think it needs to exist when Zulu get both a 25% reduction in needed XP and extra XP from Impi spear throws.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'm in the minority, perhaps, but I still disagree. Nearest competition for Zulu is Sweden. Zulu's only source of mass free xp is the +2 xp on the Buffalo line. The XP reduction is useful for training highly promoted units over time but Sweden will end up with more lvl 4 promoted units early on, with the exception of infantry units under the current promotions.

    Are Zulu winning faster than other warmongers? Their key unit is still a melee unit.

    I'd trim back a bit of the power on the unique promos before the +2 xp. Maybe reducing the extra hp granted?
     
    SuperNoobCamper likes this.
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    the first place I would need that is the flanking bonus. Horns gives almost as much flanking damage than the entire shock line and Overrun combined.
     
  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    The Zulus are getting a whole bunch of level 6 melee and level 5 ranged units easily enough in my AI game, without the xp from enemy lands.
     
  12. ICanHasName?

    ICanHasName? Warlord

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    To be fair the AI is reasonably good at accomplishing nothing productive while sitting in enemy land :lol:

    Agreed though one of the huge xp bonuses should go, and this is the one humans are most better than the AI at.
     
    SuperNoobCamper likes this.
  13. stii

    stii King

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    Agree with everyone else that having abilities much better in human hands is an issue. I'm not sure Zulu are over powered though? I seem like civs are constantly getting better, which is probably fine as more powerful abilities leads to more different play styles. So maybe just all units get 1 exp per turn? That is probably about level with what a human can do by heavily playing into the current ability.
     
  14. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    To be completely honest i don't think the 2XP on enemy land should be removed despite being heavily exploitable for a couple of reasons:
    • The Zulus is a civ that gets no bonus to anything but being a strong warmonger and all of their bonuses revovle around having a stronger army than everyone else without rewarding them for it; the get no inherent bonuses for capturing cities, killing units, no economic bonuses, no bonuses for science or culture, no bonuses for city development .... Just bonuses for units to make them level up faster ... The CS intimidation bonus is useless tbh since the vast majority of your army would be melee units you really would not need them to be more effective at tributing.
    • VP is made to make the single player experience a better experience so exploits are not really an issue since balancing around multiplayer is not a goal at all; the same argument about blocking an potential exploit was brought up a couple of times before in other single player games like the potion of restoration exploit in Skyrim or the Oxford university exploit in vanilla Civ V and really no one bothered to "fix" these despite being heavily exploitable by human player because really no one cares if someone "cheats" a single player game.
    • The Zulus are not overperforming in my experience; sure you can wipe the map with their Impis as a human player but you can do the same with pretty much every other warmonger .... I mean even the AI can do so quite consistently with Songhai and don't get me started on Soghai.
     
  15. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    But you literally say later in the same comment that Zulus are doing well? And anyway, just because conquest doesn't give you explicit yields doesn't mean it's not good. Conquest has extremely large benefits.

    Here you are talking about exploits vs. a mechanic that the AI can not use. When I am using Zulu with this, I think about positioning my units in a way that gets me xp. However, the AI can't do this. It's not so much an exploit as the fact that the AI can't use it well. And you can't tell me to play suboptimally just to make it fair for the AI.

    Well, I would consider "wiping the map" to be overpowered. And in your case perhaps Songhai is too powerful? But I don't want to get into that discussion. Anyway, I wouldn't say Zulu are completely broken, sure, but I would remove the +2 xp and replace it with something slightly less powerful that the AI can use. Zulu are already bad in AI hands, this promotion makes it even worse for the AI. Additionally, replacing it with a slightly weaker promotion nerfs them, which I think they need.
     
  16. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    I can't find where i said the Zulus are doing well, my third point clearly says "The Zulus are not over performing"; if you got the impression of that from "You can wipe the map using the Impis" then it's bad wording on my part as i meant it's doable with literally every other civ including Venice or India.

    Other civs have kits that helps them with conquest and rewards them for doing so, you have got The Aztecs, Assyria ,France, Songhai and Mongolia with 4thUC ... All of them are great warmongers that get rewarded for conquest by one part of the Kit and get rewarded for it by the other part .... The Zulus only get bonuses to make conquests easier which is just inferior to other warmongers in my book
    The 2XP on enemy lands is usable by the AI, just not exploitable to the extent a human player would do on purpose to make the AI look foolish and not able to use it to it's fullest potential in comparison .... It's literally the same as stealing a worker or a settler in the early game; the AI can capture workers or settlers but it cannot exploit it the way a human player would do to remove an AI from the game before it even starts.

    Just to be clear, Wiping the map is doable with literally any civ; if you have a vanilla civ with no unique units, buildings, improvement, wonders or ability you can still wipe the map with it but it won't be as easy as playing Sweeden or Songhai for example.
    I'm not against "fixing" the Zulus to make the AI perform better but i'm completely against the argument that the last patch "overcorrected" or made the Zulus an overpowered invincible civ in human hands because it simply did not.
     

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