1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. We have selected the winners of the Old World random draw and competition. For the winning entries, please check this thread.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Old World has finally been released on GOG and Steam, besides also being available in the Epic store . Come to our Old World forum and discuss with us!
    Dismiss Notice

The Zulu

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Stangle Khan, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    535
    If you hate Washington thissssssssssssssssss much, play bigger maps lol. Can't steal tiles when you barely have connected borders.
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    That's what I hate the most about him, his UA does absolutely nothing on huge maps, and when I brought that up during the balance-discussion everyone just laughed at me.
     
  3. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    535
    Guess I missed this discussion, but can confirm. In my current Huge game, he's got one border tile with Atilla and zero with Dido, his two neighbors. Not sure about CSes, but def not a lot.

    But...I do move min city distance back to 3.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    I am not an American but cry me a Moderator Action: <snip> river you band of good-for-nothing liberal hippies. "Oppressing" is just another redundant and absolutely devalued word due to overuse by hypocritical leftists who whine at others for hatred which they are always the living embodiment of, more than ready to throw insults at whoever disagrees with them and/or they dislike. Spreading guilt and regret with crocodile tears over things nobody is truly responsible for helps no one and renders people weak and pathetic.

    Back to the Zulu - they are a war civ. They should remain a war civ. You can't just stick something on top of the things they have currently (that are overpowered at what they do but one-dimensional and only do that one thing which balances it out due to making them worse at adaptation) and expect it to be balanced. Why should every single civ in existence have several things they specialise at? Korea specialises only in science and is fine. Zulu are unmatched in war due to their tons of promotions and are fine. If everything is diverse then nothing is - and so a pure war civ should stay.

    Seriously, the Zulu pretty much get better stuff than most of the Swedish UA in just one of their Ikanda promotions (and they get promotions very easily) and with their fast promotion rate they can get to Carolean March on everyone fast despite taking some Zulu unique promos, why buff them?

    Moderator Action: You should not insult those with whom you disagree. That is considered flaming.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  5. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    535
    Nah. People are responsible for their actions and the consequences. In this day and age, being ignorant of, say, the way the War on Drugs destroys lives isn't even an excuse.
     
  6. supracseduch

    supracseduch Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    206
    Uhh, where did all this come from?

    I guess it's a fundamental issue of game design. Being forced to go down the militaristic path is seen as "more boring" than being forced to go technological. This is because tech opens up so many cool options; military, not so much. Maybe we can make them more interesting just by giving more reasons to start a war.

    The Zulu don't absolutely have to specialize in something else. Just allow them to have some sort of "fallback" option. We're in agreement that they're stronger than other military civs, and are not in need of a buff. I did specifically suggest to rework them. Very slightly reduce their military somehow, and very slightly make them more competitive diplomatically, preferably by being the "big-stick".
     
  7. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    I must agree about wars on drugs usually doing nothing productive. In fact wherever it is, it only brings gangs who sell (more dangerous, untested - due to often lack of competition) substances.

    In fact it is usually the gangs who try to lobby for the ban to be kept up so they don't have to pay taxes and as a result of the ban have, actually, more influence and money by being illegal. It's often the small users who are caught and penalised with irrational punishments.

    But on the other side if you allow small substances, lots of people will be there lobbying for greater ones to be permitted too, and it will always continue endlessly.
    The slippery slope, unfortunately, is very real which can be seen all around the world.
    I'm a bit disturbed that Sweden has an actual party (or at least some people inside it?) lobbying for paedophilia and necrophilia which sort of proves the slope's existence - it's all little steps, but it inevitably turns the middle, accepted by the public ground, in one direction. As new things are accepted as normal, those which were previously unthinkable but considered even slightly alike become just naughty/bad, and with enough time those ideas will gain enough traction to actually become the accepted norm themselves.

    So yes, wars on drugs may have consequences now but all those would disappear if someone just destroyed the gangs, mafias and cartels. I know it's almost impossible, I bet most of those have enough people inside the police/local governance/whatever, but that would be ideal.

    The doable way would be to just allow marijuana (which is actually more healthy than cigarettes) but criminalise talk of allowing anything more dangerous, especially the likes of crocodile. Seriously, I read about that one, if someone slipped this into your tea ONCE you'd actually start decaying over time.

    ...But then human nature. The more you ban something, the more it is desired. Wouldn't allowing marijuana but banning harshly crocodile actually result in a high drop of marijuana usage (due to people no longer feeling like "WE IZ EDGY REBULLS we use banned substance") but increase of underground gangs which would be trading in crocodile? Why would edgy teenagers get off on using marijuana when it becomes acceptable for them to have?

    This is the problem, it's never one sided. Everything has consequences that often can't be foreseen initially, nothing is perfectly good (except me of course!), nothing is perfectly evil. Some alternatives are always better though - but as always it's better to act and do something than sit and be idle.

    Anyway it's fine to blame people for their own actions, not for those of their ancestors or parents though which I see happen way too much. It's not fine to blame others for the actions of their government neither, you never know if democracy is true - if there is no 24/7 cameras with ballots that everyone can watch on the internet, if those who check and write down the votes aren't also monitored the same way... For all you know votes could be faked, results could be faked, could they not? I can't trust a democracy which doesn't monitor stuff with at least the ways I've mentioned above and I doubt a single one does that.

    Ah, so you suggest a partial nerf combined with adding something small but different to compensate? That could work, but I think trying to diversify this civ by force will actually homogenise it.

    I don't even know what could be worked. XP gain? Then the synergy with Ikanda will be nerfed. Impi? I guess, it was pretty broken the last time I tried it, absolutely steamrolling everything of its own era. Gold maintenance reduction is actually a bit of an economical help so I don't think it should be nerfed. If Ikanda promotions are nerfed they'll usually be ignored in favour of trying to rush March all the time instead of being trade-offs.

    It's very hard to change anything, and big-stick CS diplomacy is already covered by the Mongols.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Okay, first of all, sorry about the derailing and whine about Washington (may he rest in hell), let's get back to Zulu.


    I honestly believe that plain warmongering is a theme that's good enough for the Zulu, but I'm not beyond admitting that I might be wrong on this point.
    Here is the deal, I don't actually play enough Zulu that I'm confident in arguing this point, and I assume the same goes for all of you. If we are going to change anything we're going to need people who actually play, and enjoy playing the Zulu.


    Otherwise, ideas for changes that sticks to the theme without being all too warmongergy, how about giving some civ a bonus to controlled puppets? It promotes warfare, because you need warfare to get puppets, and it promotes peace, because puppets are pretty much useless in war.
     
  9. Sendaf

    Sendaf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    71
    I like it! What if puppets (very) occasionally spawned diplomats?

    Another idea is all puppets get some sort of bonus everytime a great general is spawned through experience
     
  10. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    102
    I think it's probably easier to just have them exert extra pressure on city states so they can demand tributes easier (especially for the earlier parts of the game).
     
  11. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,043
    Location:
    Toulouse(France)
    I just dont understand this thread. It seems that some people which don't play and don't like the zulu want to change them for something that suits to their taste with some bs arguments
    Nobody complains that germany or brazil can only play one kind of style!!
    So why is it even an argument for zulu ?
    I have played zulu at least 10 times since i came here.
    Have I felt unsatisfied until now?
    No, if I wanted to play some hybrid style, i would have picked greece, france, japan or rome
    When I pick zulu, iwant to fight, iwant to be 1v7 and still dominate the world and iwant those godlike promotions + xp threshold reduction to defeat my enemies in battle
    Well, it's exacly what they bring to the table I like that.
    So please try to focus on things that needs to be changed because they are broken or underpower.
    Dont change things to suit your taste. I like millitary gameplay and i find it the most entertaining.
    Zulu is fine for me. Pick America or Babylon if you want to be more flexible
     
  12. Adonis VII

    Adonis VII Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11
    I can't say Shaka does horrible. I've had games with him last or second last, but also had him in first/second giving me a good go. But I probably don't get in as many games as many of you.

    Playstyle wise, I don't see anything wrong with Shaka being more extreme in warmongering category. I think its fun having a game where you put 100% focus on burning down everything at the same time similar to how I like Venice for putting 100% focus on making one super city.

    I play emperor/immortal depending on the playstyle/civ on Huge & Epic if that matters.
     
  13. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    102
    Well, my suggestion only reinforces his playstyle more since you will be spamming military units in order to get that tribute bonus anyway. Zulus are definitely warmongers but I feel they need a little help at the moment because they don't quite get to their power spike efficiently enough, especially if you go authority (which should be the case, but getting the culture is hard when you're competing against AIs with an enormous boost against barbs).

    But then again, sometimes (or most of the time) you will need to play progress zulu just for the sake of reaching impis faster (and I honestly dislike this playstyle for the zulus, but it honestly is the most effective to start bullying people asap since grabbing early income is key to maintaining your army while getting stronger military tech). Perhaps it's just the Authority branch lacking in comparison.

    Note: I usually play 8 civs on large pangaea map in standard settings (with strategic balance).
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    I don't see the point of complaints about AI, I have never seen Isabella, Askia, Ottomans etc. do fine either, especially Isabella though. I see Enrico runaway all the time but whenever I don't play Spain, Isabella somehow manages to get denounced by someone (granted it WAS Ramkhamhaeng last time so I guess it's not her fault) 20 turns in the game, forget to expand and whatever. This girl just can't do anything right.

    Zulu don't need help, they're already overpowered at what they do with three insane promotions, each of which pretty much beats Sweden's entire UA. as well as 50% greater Exp rate which ensures you can get March - which is what Sweden's UU has - very fast, doubly so if you snatch Alhambra at which point you've pretty much won a conquest victory.

    Also taking Authority shouldn't be the case for the Zulu. In fact in my opinion it shouldn't be the case for anyone. Just go Progress if you want to help building and recruiting stuff and go wide-tall, Tradition if you need tall-wide, pop or you play some civs that always need to go Tradition like Arabia/Korea, Authority is just awful. It provides less production, food, science, gp, culture than both and the only compensation it gives is a free settler (with +2prod-15%building cost per city I could just get prod/science buildings in my non-capital cities faster and recruit a settler there) and free units which, while cool, aren't enough to compensate for the absolute terribleness of the tree, especially now that the culture/science bonus doesn't apply to the city but your capital (before it'd instantly give you one tile in your city and a small boost of production/food there, but now even that's gone).

    Seriously, my last Huns game I've killed so many barbarians, fought so many wars - and I was still behind in culture and science. Even Tradition seems better at wide than this.
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Well, she is a religious fanatic, and they usually suck at making friends.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,357
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Wrong. It applies to the City where it happens.

    G
     
  17. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    Are you sure? I settled several cities with full Authority and didn't see them gain a tile like they used to previously.
     
  18. Sendaf

    Sendaf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    71
    So maybe the issue is not Shaka's specials but the "warmonger" policy branch is not up to par compared to the other 2 opening policies?

    I rolled random on my first playthrough (difficulty 6) of the most recent official release and got Shaka. I expanded pretty well and focused on teching to Impis as fast as possible. Authority policy all the way. I was neck an neck with Ghandi my closest neighbor and ate him all up. Then I tried to take on the Shoshone to the North of me for giggles. They snowballed early an hit the industrial age when I started my war with Ghandi. It was a fun war against the Shoshone but I retired from the game when things started going poorly.
     
  19. Sendaf

    Sendaf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    71
    So maybe the issue is not Shaka's specials but the "warmonger" policy branch is not up to par compared to the other 2 opening policies?

    I rolled random on my first playthrough (difficulty 6) of the most recent official release and got Shaka. I expanded pretty well and focused on teching to Impis as fast as possible. Authority policy all the way. I was neck an neck with Ghandi my closest neighbor and ate him all up. Then I tried to take on the Shoshone to the North of me for giggles. They snowballed early an hit the industrial age when I started my war with Ghandi. It was a fun war against the Shoshone but I retired from the game when things started going poorly.
     
  20. Forsti

    Forsti Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Finland
    You used to get 50 culture and GAP when you settled, nowadays you get just 25 culture and science.

    Is there, by the way, a proper topic for discussion on the balance of policy trees? The weakness of the authority tree has been noticed in every other thread I read, but I'm yet to find a proper thread for the discussion.
     

Share This Page