Actually I play Zulu often and I completely forgot that they even got a bigger bonus for great generals, so it'll probably be better for this tribute bonus to be small. You should only get the bonus to the base tribute yields (not the authority tribute policy) so I don't think cultural runaway will be a problem.
The Zulu
- Thread starter Stangle Khan
- Start date
Heh, while I have done this on lower difficulties for amusement's sake, that's not actually the why this came up. I use Landsknecht upgraded into Impi with Blitz + Siege as city obliterating battering rams. 4-6 of them can knock down garrisoned cities with walls in a single turn, then go pillage an entire country side for full health and immediately doing it again, all while using the gold pillaged from tiles and cities to buy more Landsknecht.
It's quite powerful, but it always felt disappointing when using them in a direct fight as they're more of a sidegrade compared to Blitz Tercio at that point. I suspect I won't get an answer here, so I'll just make a bug post and see what the devs say.
As for people asking for more tribute yields, keep in mind that the increased bullying strength can result in more yields due to being able to demand tribute at a higher rate. I feel that the ability is going to be quite powerful as is and should be tested in game before even being considered for a buff.
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Txurce
Deity
I think Gazebo's original proposal is original and a lot of fun, which covers my bases. I would drop the tile claiming -- one thing too many -- and keep the bullying as beefy as possible,
This is a nice adjustment to it.
This is a nice adjustment to it.
I've finished a game as Zulu, I think the newly added part to the UA is really valuable. I was able to get a lot of tribute, most of the time I was only barely over the amount needed to influence, implying the bonus 50% intimidation is really valuable. Also got tribute a few times while I still had a penalty for recent tribute. The 25% extra yields isn't enormous, but its something, I more or less relied on tribute to not go bankrupt until Medieval.
I've definitely been abusing enjoying the ability too. One thing I've found interesting about it is that the CS you start nearby can have drastic effects on how you play. If you start next to a culture CS, you can really pursue high value wonders. If you start next to a science CS, you can rush military techs at a startling pace. If you start next to a production CS, you can build a truly absurd amount of assorted wonders without sacrificing on infrastructure or military units. Starting next to a faith CS gave me one of my earliest religions ever (turns 65.) Starting next to a food CS... is alright. I mean, I had 10+ pop more than every other capitol, but it was kind of hard to appreciate that next to the other yields. It's a fun and dynamic system that has made my test games feel very different from each other.
Most of this applies to bullying in general, but the combination of reduced unit maintenance and increased effectiveness means you can very realistically conduct a full scale war while maintaining a CS terror campaign. This really elevates it to a constant revenue stream rather than something you can do in between making new friends abroad. Honestly, my biggest issue was that I kept getting caught in an entertaining, endless loop of bullying and forgot about the whole world domination thing.
There was only really one point where I felt the ability was perhaps too strong while playing, but on reflection it didn't seem that bad. Long story short, I had taken over my continent aside from vassals, so I had free reign over 8 city states. As if that wasn't enough, they were all culture, science and production CS, all of which I maintained max tribute rates for some truly absurd yields.
The reason I ultimately decided that this wasn't a big deal was because, as mentioned before, technically any civ could do this with a bit more effort and I was basically guaranteed a win from that position anyway. Win More was definitely the order of the day.
Most of this applies to bullying in general, but the combination of reduced unit maintenance and increased effectiveness means you can very realistically conduct a full scale war while maintaining a CS terror campaign. This really elevates it to a constant revenue stream rather than something you can do in between making new friends abroad. Honestly, my biggest issue was that I kept getting caught in an entertaining, endless loop of bullying and forgot about the whole world domination thing.
There was only really one point where I felt the ability was perhaps too strong while playing, but on reflection it didn't seem that bad. Long story short, I had taken over my continent aside from vassals, so I had free reign over 8 city states. As if that wasn't enough, they were all culture, science and production CS, all of which I maintained max tribute rates for some truly absurd yields.
The reason I ultimately decided that this wasn't a big deal was because, as mentioned before, technically any civ could do this with a bit more effort and I was basically guaranteed a win from that position anyway. Win More was definitely the order of the day.
Txurce
Deity
Really interesting. It makes me want to play with them, which would otherwise never, ever have happened.
I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot. There's a surprising amount of subtlety and self expression while playing Shaka. I love playing Pokemon Trainer with my units, coming up with different tools for different jobs. My front lines generally consist of March+Medic units from the Swordsman, as is standard practice, but there's plenty of interesting promotions you can take from there.
My absolute favorite unit in the game is Blitz Impi upgraded from Landsknecht, which is why I value Alhambra so highly. A team of four of these can knock down any non capitol city in 1-3 turns pre Arsenal, and they start gaining exp at such a ridiculous rate that you can start augmenting them any way you want. Headed into a forested area? Woodsmen. Too many rivers? Amphibious. Only one tile to assault from? Extra movement means you can attack a city with up to 8 units from a single tile with unit shuffling. The extra 300-600ish gold you get from the damaging a city means that you'll never be short on cash.
The latest change has only enhanced that feeling of self expression. Starting next to a production CS makes Goddess of Beauty a genuinely powerful option because you can afford to just build every wonder you want. It turned my cheesy Alhambra strat into something you can actually pursue with reliability. I'd love to see what others come up with while playing.
Not too strong, though? The new UA?
Personally, I don't feel it is. I can easily see how someone who does not demand tribute often would feel it is though. It's hard to perceive the real value of needing a few less units to do the same thing anyone can do. If it ends up needing a nerf, I can see reducing or removing the bonus yields being an acceptable change.
I've pretty much already said how I feel about it though, so I'd be interested if anyone feels it's significantly stronger than I do.
I've pretty much already said how I feel about it though, so I'd be interested if anyone feels it's significantly stronger than I do.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I don't think it's too strong. They're better than before, but also more fun. If this was on top of their previous GG bonuses I'd have a problem with it, but I think it's perfectly fine.
The possible problem is the variance within their abilities. Some games you just don't have any CS near you and now you're weaker than before. Some games you get the perfect setup and found and reform before the second religion is founded, while blazing through policy trees.
The nature of that means they're extremely prone to confirmation bias recommendations. I think a lot of AI games will give a better idea than listening to people, especially given the slightly-intangible benefits of their bonus. (AKA how much harder would it have been without your UA?)
The possible problem is the variance within their abilities. Some games you just don't have any CS near you and now you're weaker than before. Some games you get the perfect setup and found and reform before the second religion is founded, while blazing through policy trees.
The nature of that means they're extremely prone to confirmation bias recommendations. I think a lot of AI games will give a better idea than listening to people, especially given the slightly-intangible benefits of their bonus. (AKA how much harder would it have been without your UA?)
Heavy tribute in general might be due for a little bit of tuning, the production one is really powerful. My last game as China I was at war and got a chance to tribute a CS and build Alhambra in 1 turn. On the flip side food is rather mediocre, I'll sometimes take gold instead.
ElliotS
Warmonger
This is true. The food one is super weak. I'd rather see it just outright give 1 pop in your capital. I think production might be a bit OP, but I'd rather not see it overnerfed. It requires a decent amount of work to use to maximum efficiency, so I don't see too much of an issue.
I can see automatically gaining 1 pop getting out of hand pretty easily. I think produciton is by far the best in general, even if you aren't using it for any particular. The big exception of course would be really early faith/culture tributes. I think something like +20% to the food and -10-20% to production should do it.
From what I recall, the tributes are based on the yields of your capitol. I want to say something like four and half times your capitols output, though I'll have to test in game. I can certainly say that I've never come close to finishing Alhambra in 1 turn with it.
I don't personally think production is significantly more powerful, just way more dramatic and perhaps more useful in the mid to late game. I mean, you can't really compare to bullying a faith civ early on. As for food, I can't remember a time where demanding it didn't get me the remainder of my growth cycle, though I generally focus on growth early, so that could skew my perception. I will say I often end up using them for gold fairly soon though.
I don't personally think production is significantly more powerful, just way more dramatic and perhaps more useful in the mid to late game. I mean, you can't really compare to bullying a faith civ early on. As for food, I can't remember a time where demanding it didn't get me the remainder of my growth cycle, though I generally focus on growth early, so that could skew my perception. I will say I often end up using them for gold fairly soon though.
PapaRockett
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2016
- Messages
- 435
When do you guys feel it's a good time to upgrade the impis? To be honest I find them to be much more powerful than Fusiliers. The double-strike is just too good.
saamohod
Deity
Impis have been my nightmare ever since I started playing this mod couple of years ago. The situation didn't seem to change up til now. My latest game with Zulu neighbour a couple days ago nearly made me surrender. That was one of the heaviest wars with the biggest losses I've ever had in this mod.
Whenever I find out there is Zulu Civ nearby, I know my game is not going to be walk in the park.
PapaRockett
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2016
- Messages
- 435
Yeah, whenever I'm playing Zulus, my impis just destroy anyone's army, regardless of what unit I'm up against. I'd hate to witness what it's like against an AI maddended Shaka...
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
Playing against Immortal Zulu Impi Army is the stuff of (my) nightmares! I usually select Shaka to be one of my 7 opponents and it's one of the reasons why I'm extra extra extra careful about my city placements - settling so there's only 6 tiles where they can attack from (so no chance of stationing ranged/siege units in the 2nd ring) gives the city a fighting chance to survive long enough even against a Zulu army with impis.
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