Theater of War

[Eclipse4449]

exp, If you give an apposing team a verbal version of a MPP and another team attacks this alliance he is now is in war with 4 players and the odds changed unknowingly (there's nothing wrong with this alliance just consider how you would feel after attacking someone, you now have another team after you honoring their agreement)

How would you Feel?
Although this is a different subject, and it is not of major effect, I wanted to point out, would you want this level of deception hidden or how would you feel if this very act was on your door step. I have seen many games stop for very little reasons.

 

[Eclipse4449]

Yes
Locked Alliance

This means that a 1 vs 1 war causes a 2 vs 2 war even to the point of not yet meeting.
Further more, the only exception to this is, if for some reason war is not declared because of the fact the option is not available due to the lack of that player not being available, you must make this equation true by removing "Peace from the players Diplo screen" without delay "Go meet your Enemy".

The War is to be felt by both Allys, which also brings to mind that War Happiness can not be felt by allies and that does not equal the first part.

 

[Eclipse4449]

This is dumb I know but
This is a team Thier actions equal, try to manipulate this code and you loose sight of how it was.

 

[Eclipse4449]

Where is the turn?

 

[Cyc]

I believe Bowsling has his copy. Don't know who he's going to send it to.

 

[muzbang]

i'm back
but nothing in my box

 

[Lanzelot]

Well, I played Bowsling's turn, saved and then started my turn only to find that China has landed 2 more units on my island, which is now populated by enemy spears and archers (God knows who's protecting their island). China has still not declared war. They have a locked alliance with the Iroquios, but are ignoring the rules. So I'm out of here. You guys want to bend the rules, bend them on someone else.

So I guess the next turn that needs to be played is France. I suggest that Cyc sends his save to the referees that Eclipse has mentioned, and they will make a decision. E.g if Chinese units are inside French borders without declaration of war, they need to retreat, declare war next turn and then re-enter. For example.
If they are not in French territory, then there's nothing to complain about. Entering neutral territory should be within the rules.

 

[I. Larkin]

So I guess the next turn that needs to be played is France. I suggest that Cyc sends his save to the referees that Eclipse has mentioned, and they will make a decision. E.g if Chinese units are inside French borders without declaration of war, they need to retreat, declare war next turn and then re-enter. For example.
If they are not in French territory, then there's nothing to complain about. Entering neutral territory should be within the rules.

I disagree. The rule "declare war when enter" was enforced at ISDG and I was very much against it. We had long discussion with Cyc. I don't want new rules in between. Read carefully picture at post #462. There is nothing about 2 vs 2 war.

 

[Cyc]

1. I believe China was within my borders when they disembarked from the ship, both times.

2. Ivan, this is not based on "declare when enter". This is "it's a locked alliance". You declared on both France and Germany. China, as your locked ally needs to do the same. That is standard practice. China could not declare on France or Germany, as they had not met either country. But back on the last page, when I made the statement that they needed to declare, as I was now on their diplomatic screen, I said China had better declare this turn (giving them the 1 turn slack they didn't deserve) or I was gone. You and Memento ignored my statement. And I am gone.

3.The only way I'd consider coming back now is if we went back 2 turns, when China first saw my borders and units and I became visible on their Diplo screen. At that point, they would have to declare war in accordance to their the locked alliance protocol.

 

[I. Larkin]

As I said, I disagree. From the picture at #462 does not follow the statement

"This means that a 1 vs 1 war causes a 2 vs 2 war even to the point of not yet meeting".

I also disagree that

That is standard practice.

I am new on that and nobody tell me about it.

Anyway, China did not make any action that possible at Peace and impossible at war. Therefore I see no reason to replay game from two turns back.

 

[Calis]

Guys, that game is going horribly slow anyway. If we start two turns back, we are in February again.

I am rapidly losing interest in this one...

 

[Lanzelot]

What is the big deal of declaring war here anyway? Everybody has 8 luxuries within distance 3 of the capital...!! I don't think that war happiness will be a major factor in this game... (And it's Monarch, so with a marketplace your cities can grow to size 22, before you need to raise the lux slider to 10%...)

You declared on both France and Germany. China, as your locked ally needs to do the same. That is standard practice.

Well, here I must disaggree. The thing is called "Mutual Protection Pact", and not "Mutual Agression Pact"... And the way an MPP works in a standard game is like this: Iroquois and China are locked in an MPP and if nation X attacks Iroquois, then China will declare war on X. But not the other way around (if Iroquois attacks X, then China does not need to declare on X). This is confirmed by the Civilopedia:

Furthermore, if any civilization attacks another nation that is part of a Locked Alliance, the attacker will find itself at war with all nations member to that Locked Alliance.

This is what happened here: Iroquois ("any civilization") attacked France ("another nation") and found itself at war with France and Germany ("all nations member to that Locked Alliance"). The Civilopedia doesn't say anything about the alliance partners of the attacker. Therefore, if indeed no Chinese units are inside French borders, then I have to support Ivan: there should be no reason for China to declare on France.

On the other hand: as I stated above, it is really insignificant who declares on whom. If both sides played the game correctly, they should by now have enough luxes connected to run 0% lux rate --- and you can't drop it any lower than that, can you... So please, Memento, just declare war, and get on with the game...

And for Cyc: I think, more urgent than resolving this question here should be getting a good "German Expeditionary Force" going...

 

[Bowsling]

And for Cyc: I think, more urgent than resolving this question here should be getting a good "German Expeditionary Force" going...

 

[I. Larkin]

I think it is time for Bowsling to play for Cyc.
If you have no file, you may play what I "sent to both".

 

[Bowsling]

Still, I want to hear this referee ruling.

It is cheap enough to land without declaring war when you have the intentions of an invasion, but when you are in a locked alliance with another civilization that is at war with your target, that is even worse. It is, however, an odd system. If I had put a boat in Iroquois territory, China would have already declared war.

 

[I. Larkin]

I did not said that my landing is peaceful. Diplo screen have no option of war declaration.
Mechanics of Locked Alliance is such that it works as it works.
We did not discuss it at the beginning any "corrections".

Who is referee here? We also did not discuss it.

If I had put a boat in Iroquois territory, China would have already declared war.

Go ahead. Probably it resolve situation.

 

[Bowsling]

But the flaw is that I don't have a boat to put in your territory

 

[Eclipse4449]

Much is happening here to include not having fun
First I don't believe a single turn has made it around being played by there own civ.
2 The original concept of this game was to be a short game
3 many players signed on against thier own personal likes ie. "I hate Island maps", "that kind of game is not for me", I prefer to establish an Empire vs an early war, and more.

But I think we signed on because of the team concept, A thought that "He was my Ally" but I have a feeling that future thoughts of this game isn't going to be as I thought. It is possible that this game can continue but it is also possible that time is wasted down the road due to a future issue.

There are 8 of us here, please vote to keep or drop this one, no need to give a reason please

 

[Eclipse4449]

I did not said that my landing is peaceful. Diplo screen have no option of war declaration.
Mechanics of Locked Alliance is such that it works as it works.
We did not discuss it at the beginning any "corrections".

Who is referee here? We also did not discuss it.


Go ahead. Probably it resolve situation.

When you look at the tab that shows "Peace Treaty", you can click on it to remove the peace treaty creating war.

I asked 2 players, one here at CFC and another from another civ3 forum I am a part of, both didn't like the way I discribed it, which was on the subject of landing to force the opposition to declare war. Unfortunately the topic of not knowing how to create war without striking a blow

 

[Calis]

I'd prefer to drop it. Sorry, but it is really no fun.