Theological Implications of Evolution.

[classical_hero]

I think everyone knows my position on thi issue so for me these are the problems of Theistic Evvolution, of course those who believe in this need to show me why my problems are nothing at all.

1. The main problem that I have is that it changes the Nature of God. How can an holy God have death and suffering as part of his plan? That is what the geological record shows a history of death, since there are plenty animals that died way before humans. This is the pre-eminent attribute of God that he is Holy. Isaiah 6:3 say "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts". If God did use Evolution, then he is certainly not Holy, since he made death as an intricate part of this world and since the Bible says "The Wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) According to the Bible Death is a result of sin, so that means that God created sin.
Also the Bible clearly states that God said that what he had done was very good, so for him to say that death is very good, then something must be wrong with him.

2. It makes God as someone who does not care. This is here since if God just used a random process to get us where we are right now. But The Bible does say that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Clearly according to the Bible that God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us, so that we might be saved from the penalty of sin. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Propitiation means to appease. Jesus needed to do that since God's wrath is against any who is still in their sins "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." OF course this would be hypocritical of God for being angry at anyone who sins if he allowed sin and death to be a natural part of living on this planet.

3. It makes Jesus a liar. He clearly states that Man was from the Beginning of creation, meaning that man was around when all the other now extinct animal were around. If Jesus is God and that is what the Bible says, then why did he not just say that after millions of years of change man finally came into being. But Jesus never said that so since he did not say that then he must be lying if Evolution is true.

 

[Perfection]

Well, I'd say you'd have the same problems regardless of evolution:

I mean look at your claims:
1. And there isn't suffering and death in His plan without evolution?! Either God didn't plan what is going on now (which should call into question His greatness) or God has suffering and death as part of His plan
2. If God so lovingly crafted us, then why do our bodies suck? I mean for instance, why is the male plumbing built in such a way that makes it susceptable to hernias?
3. Wasn't man around at the end of creation not the beginning (the 6th day)?

 

[holy king]

How can an holy God have death and suffering as part of his plan? It makes God as someone who does not care. It makes Jesus a liar.

not particularly problems that result only out of "theistic evolution", are they?

 

[El_Machinae]

My opinion is that it's pretty damaging, but I don't have faith in the Divine Inspiration that was allegedly available to the authors.

But if one wants to believe that some scripture was Inspired (big "I"), how do you distinguish that from scripture was not? (other than later finding out that some of the scripture was wrong)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

not particularly problems that result only out of "theistic evolution", are they?

Indeed, I second (well, third) that. Suffering and death are part of life and, if the Book of Job (for example) is anything to go by, then God is willing to use it for His own ends. And either man didn't exist until the sixth day or he already existed in some form already before appearing on earth.

Also, all these objections only make sense in the context of fundamentalist (ie, the Bible is the source of all doctrine/knowledge/authority) and literalist (ie the Bible is literally true on all points) Christianity, which is a subset of all religion in general.

 

[Che Guava]

1. The main problem that I have is that it changes the Nature of God. How can an holy God have death and suffering as part of his plan? That is what the geological record shows a history of death, since there are plenty animals that died way before humans. This is the pre-eminent attribute of God that he is Holy. Isaiah 6:3 say "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts". If God did use Evolution, then he is certainly not Holy, since he made death as an intricate part of this world and since the Bible says "The Wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) According to the Bible Death is a result of sin, so that means that God created sin.
Also the Bible clearly states that God said that what he had done was very good, so for him to say that death is very good, then something must be wrong with him .

Given that death and suffering are part of life, wouldn't that already be proof that it must be, at least in some part, part of god's plan?

And if death is the result of sin, how did our one perfect man (Jesus!) die?

2. It makes God as someone who does not care. This is here since if God just used a random process to get us where we are right now. But The Bible does say that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Clearly according to the Bible that God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us, so that we might be saved from the penalty of sin. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Propitiation means to appease. Jesus needed to do that since God's wrath is against any who is still in their sins "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." OF course this would be hypocritical of God for being angry at anyone who sins if he allowed sin and death to be a natural part of living on this planet.

Maybe god's plan is just so intricate it just seems like randomness to us lowly humans

3. It makes Jesus a liar. He clearly states that Man was from the Beginning of creation, meaning that man was around when all the other now extinct animal were around. If Jesus is God and that is what the Bible says, then why did he not just say that after millions of years of change man finally came into being. But Jesus never said that so since he did not say that then he must be lying if Evolution is true

Maybe that was Jesus' little white lie, so he didn't have to teach evolutionary biology to first century hebrew followers


It's true, there does seem to be a lot incompatible between a literal interprestation of scripture and evidence of evolution in the geological timescale.

 

[downtown]

I think everyone knows my position on thi issue so for me these are the problems of Theistic Evvolution, of course those who believe in this need to show me why my problems are nothing at all.

1. The main problem that I have is that it changes the Nature of God. How can an holy God have death and suffering as part of his plan? That is what the geological record shows a history of death, since there are plenty animals that died way before humans. This is the pre-eminent attribute of God that he is Holy. Isaiah 6:3 say "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts". If God did use Evolution, then he is certainly not Holy, since he made death as an intricate part of this world and since the Bible says "The Wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) According to the Bible Death is a result of sin, so that means that God created sin.
Also the Bible clearly states that God said that what he had done was very good, so for him to say that death is very good, then something must be wrong with him.

The wages of sin are not physical death. its spiritual death. Perhaps you have noticed that not every man who sins, or who sins a great deal, dies. In fact, hundreds of thousands of people are *bad people* and enjoy great physical prosperity.

Besides, death is a critical part of the Lord's plan anyways. The full measure of our creation is not accomplished here on this earth, its for when we return to be with the Lord. We do not die because we sin...Moses, Adam, the Apostles, even Jesus all physically died. Our pet animals do not die because they sinned....they died because their body has broken down.

2. It makes God as someone who does not care. This is here since if God just used a random process to get us where we are right now. But The Bible does say that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Clearly according to the Bible that God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us, so that we might be saved from the penalty of sin. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Propitiation means to appease. Jesus needed to do that since God's wrath is against any who is still in their sins "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." OF course this would be hypocritical of God for being angry at anyone who sins if he allowed sin and death to be a natural part of living on this planet.

We know from the scriptures that God may be in charge, but it never really says how. If God created the world, does it not also stand to reason that he created the laws of nature by which evolution occurs?

Besides, you're acting like evolution is the cause of death and suffering. I hate you break it to you, but even if evolution ISN'T real, the problem of suffering still is. We still die, our hearts are still broken, our bodies still suffer...thats all still here among men. The LDS perspective is that we still have these things to preserve the Free Agency of Man, which is needed so that we might grow stronger and develop. Without this agency, and without this suffering, our time here on earth is for naught.

The problem of death and suffering has nothing to do with evolution. Its a very real issue with man, regardless of how we got here.

 

[Swedishguy]

I think everyone knows my position on thi issue so for me these are the problems of Theistic Evvolution, of course those who believe in this need to show me why my problems are nothing at all.

1. The main problem that I have is that it changes the Nature of God. How can an holy God have death and suffering as part of his plan? That is what the geological record shows a history of death, since there are plenty animals that died way before humans. This is the pre-eminent attribute of God that he is Holy. Isaiah 6:3 say "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts". If God did use Evolution, then he is certainly not Holy, since he made death as an intricate part of this world and since the Bible says "The Wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) According to the Bible Death is a result of sin, so that means that God created sin.
Also the Bible clearly states that God said that what he had done was very good, so for him to say that death is very good, then something must be wrong with him.

2. It makes God as someone who does not care. This is here since if God just used a random process to get us where we are right now. But The Bible does say that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Clearly according to the Bible that God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us, so that we might be saved from the penalty of sin. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Propitiation means to appease. Jesus needed to do that since God's wrath is against any who is still in their sins "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." OF course this would be hypocritical of God for being angry at anyone who sins if he allowed sin and death to be a natural part of living on this planet.

3. It makes Jesus a liar. He clearly states that Man was from the Beginning of creation, meaning that man was around when all the other now extinct animal were around. If Jesus is God and that is what the Bible says, then why did he not just say that after millions of years of change man finally came into being. But Jesus never said that so since he did not say that then he must be lying if Evolution is true.

That means that God is a hypocrite who has planned sin and death and Jesus lied to us, since it couldn't possibly mean that evolution is wrong, could it?

Or maybe it's just so that Christendom is WRONG?!

 

[El_Machinae]

Maybe that was Jesus' little white lie, so he didn't have to teach evolutionary biology to first century hebrew followers

Or maybe he told the truth, and the authors edited to be consistent with previous writings? It's certainly not the first time!

Peter: No, I swear, he said - "Yay, I say unto you, Mankind was not created of clay but was created by intentionally modifying apes so that humans developed a sense of language that allowed complex semantics to be created"

John: You're crapping me? We're out here trying to push that Jesus is God. Are you telling me he doesn't even know what Moses wrote? I didn't come from no ape!

Peter: Jesus said Moses didn't write that actually ...

Matthew: What!?! I hate missing his sermons. Say, did he ever clarify the whole "Egypt/Bethlehem/Herod" thing, because my history teacher says the timeline doesn't work out with the prophecies

Judas: Denying both that Moses was the author of Genesis and that mankind was created on the sixth day? Where's my rope! I'm telling!

 

[El_Machinae]

I hate you break it to you, but even if evolution ISN'T real, the problem of suffering still is.

But all the suffering was supposed to be because of the sin. But natural history lets us know that the suffering occured well before any sin.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

But all the suffering was supposed to be because of the sin. But natural history lets us know that the suffering occured well before any sin.

What do you mean by that?

 

[holy king]

maybe that there was life before adam and eve could have commited sin?
yeah i guess he's mixing some things up here

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, I do know that sex and death are the driving forces of evolution (along with random mutations, but sex - well, reproduction anyways - and death are the selection agents) and that they have been around since the beginning.

 

[El_Machinae]

What do you mean by that?

I don't know how it's unclear, so I'll rephrase

There was death and suffering before there was sin (unless trilobites can sin). But Classical Hero's interpretation is that the suffering was because of the sin. So the fact that there's suffering now is understandable, because we're all sinners. But what about the suffering before?

 

[downtown]

And even without that understanding of natural history, we can come to the conclusion that not all suffering comes from sin. Babies are unable to sin, because they cannot control their actions, but they are subject to pain, suffering, and sometimes even death. Certainly we all think of times ourselves when we have suffered, when it has nothing to do with something that we, or somebody else, did.

There is a story about this in the bible too...I don't remember the gospel. Jesus goes to heal a blind man, and the apostles ask "who sinned, the man, or his parents?". Jesus replied that neither had.

 

[puglover]

@OP: You made a point without naming your source. When did Jesus ever say Man was around when the dinosaurs were?

Maybe god's plan is just so intricate it just seems like randomness to us lowly humans

That's actually a very good point. In a mortal perspective, nature may seem random and unpredictable, but if there is a God (and I believe there is), perhaps even evolution is part of his complicated plan.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

There is a story about this in the bible too...I don't remember the gospel. Jesus goes to heal a blind man, and the apostles ask "who sinned, the man, or his parents?". Jesus replied that neither had.

John, I think, the blind man at the pools of Bethesda.

 

[puglover]

John, I think, the blind man at the pools of Bethesda.

Right. John 9. Passage in context:

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

8His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" 9Some claimed that he was.
Others said, "No, he only looks like him."
But he himself insisted, "I am the man."

10"How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.

11He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

12"Where is this man?" they asked him.
"I don't know," he said.

 

[sourboy]

There is no God spoon.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

There is no God spoon.

If you take that as a given then this discussion is pointless; of course, that defeats the purpose of the whole thread.

After all, theistic evolution depends greatly on the existence of spoons.