Theoretical Discussion: Slavery at Masonry

[Magnus of Borg]

Suppose Slavery civic is at Masonry instead of Bronze Working.

1. How would it affect strategy?
2. How would it change game balance?
3. Would you like it to happen? Will it ever happen?

 

[madscientist]

Suppose Slavery civic is at Masonry instead of Bronze Working.

1. How would it affect strategy?
2. How would it change game balance?
3. Would you like it to happen? Will it ever happen?

Interesting idea.

My first response is hell no, it overpowers Masonry. Then I started thinking...

Masonry offers: Walls (well, good for using slaves), quaries, Certain Wonders (pyramids/Great Lighthouse/great Wall perhaps another or two I am missing), required to tech monotheism which founds Judaism and opens the tech path the Theology (Christianity) and the AP. THAT is an aweful lot for one very early tech (you can get it off mysticism and/or mining), so almost any CIV can tech it early (at least the ones with the mentioned 2 techs), and FASTER than BW

BW offers: Axemen, shows copper, Slavery civic, chop forrests. LEads to iron working, otherwise a rather dead end tech.

My point is that Masonry opens up alot of the early game, while BW has some very powerful specific uses.

I understand the idea, nerf BW a bit. I am not sure where it belongs but I think Masonry would foul things up a little. The only way it would work is to increase the costs of Masonry to tech while decreasing BW, but that will imbalance military too much.

So I say, keep it as it is.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Suppose Slavery civic is at Masonry instead of Bronze Working.

Not all that theoretical - look into the Chinese Unification scenario.

 

[Winston Hughes]

For the sake of balance I'd move Slavery to Horseback Riding.

It wouldn't make much sense historically, though, would it?

 

[madscientist]

For the sake of balance I'd move Slavery to Horseback Riding.

It wouldn't make much sense historically, though, would it?

I think that empowers HB too much, it's already required for war elephants in BTS.

Metal casting seams more historical for some reason except it already allow triemes, still too powerful of a tech.

Really, the only tech I see it fitting with is Iron Working. It's a little later, and offers 2 things: Shows iron which is probably more essential in the middle ages anyway unless you Roman, and allows Swordsmen.

I still like the idea of unlocking at least civic veyr early on, and slavery seams the most primitive of them all.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd consider moving it to Animal Husbandry (treating people like chattel)

that balances out AH and BW... both reveal a resource, allowing an early unit, and both have a 'rush' ability. also both have limited techs that follow from them.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I was thinking Animal Husbandry, too.

 

[madscientist]

I'd consider moving it to Animal Husbandry (treating people like chattel)

that balances out AH and BW... both reveal a resource, allowing an early unit, and both have a 'rush' ability. also both have limited techs that follow from them.

AH allows exploiting food resources which is a big advantage.

Still doesn't feel right. Every civic is really ties to a philophy/idea of some sort while slavery is ties to just a production/building/military tech. So if we think a redeining slavery it has to go with some ideaology, some different way of thinking. Environmentalism is the closest, it used to come with ecology but was changed to medicine to up that tech and get Env. earlier. So my suggestion of iron working should be out also.

Perhaps writing? I that way overpowers it. Likewise alphabet.

Mathematics? maybe a little late

Myticism, except it's wrong to be giving leaders a civic from the get go.

The problem is not really taking slavery from BW, the problem is fitting it anywhere else.

 

[Silence101]

Maybe there should be a new early game tech that unlocks slavery that requires mining as a pre-req. If it's a dead-end tech, that might make early research a bit more interesting. We could give the tech a wonder, too... like the great lighthouse or something.

Don't know what we'd call it, though...

 

[madscientist]

Maybe there should be a new early game tech that unlocks slavery that requires mining as a pre-req. If it's a dead-end tech, that might make early research a bit more interesting. We could give the tech a wonder, too... like the great lighthouse or something.

Don't know what we'd call it, though...

I like this idea better than moving slavery, but it's probably unrealistic considered we had to wait until the second expansion pack to get new techs.

Call it what it is, Slavery. Cheap tech, no wonders needed. Make it dead end like you said.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I think that empowers HB too much, it's already required for war elephants in BTS.

Overpowers it? I was of the impression that, like me, most people regularly bypass HBR until they need it for a later unit (elephants being one).

In fact, if you've got metals but no pigs/sheep/cattle it's quite likely that you'll bypass its prerequisite (AH) as well.

HBR is also more expensive than BW and is a dead end tech.

Throw in the fact that, early on, it enables only stables and the unloved HA, and you've got one unattractive tech. The only times I'll ever go for it early is if I've got no metals and need to kill someone asap, or if I'm playing as the Mongols.

Moving slavery to HBR would push the civic a little further back in the tech tree and weaken the overpowered BW a bit (still a v. important tech though), whilst making HAs and stables a more attractive choice in the early game.

Getting slavery early would then be more of a strategic choice than something you routinely get when looking for metal.

Of course, this is all irrelevant, since HBR would be a ludicrous place to put slavery.

 

[Tennyson]

I like this idea better than moving slavery, but it's probably unrealistic considered we had to wait until the second expansion pack to get new techs.

Call it what it is, Slavery. Cheap tech, no wonders needed. Make it dead end like you said.

I don't see how you can have a slavery tech and not have it required for The Pyramids. Slavery+Masonry = Pyramids would dovetail too well.

 

[Silence101]

I don't see how you can have a slavery tech and not have it required for The Pyramids. Slavery+Masonry = Pyramids would dovetail too well.

Alright, you could have a tech called slavery, have it unlock the slavery civic, and have the pyramids made available with this tech. Make the pre-req masonry, instead of mining and lower the cost of the Pyrimids slightly to account for starting it later.

 

[Tennyson]

It would also be kind of elegant that way because after Masonry you'd pretty much have to choose between Slavery+Pyramids, or Judaism.

 

[madscientist]

I view it this way

HB allows a military unit (you need it for all mounted units except chariots) and a building. Now you want to add a civic. It would be the only tech that allows all three. I would call that a bit overpowered. ABout as overpowered as the current BW which opens a civic, 2 military units, allows visibility of a resource, and allows a worker ability (chopping).

As far as slavery a requirement for pyramids, I guess not bad really.

 

[Silence101]

It would also be kind of elegant that way because after Masonry you'd pretty much have to choose between Slavery+Pyramids, or Judaism.

This method might also nerf the pyramids/representation SE gambit a bit. Personally, I kind of think it should be nerfed anyway, but that's just my oppinion. I know there's people who really like the SE.

 

[Tennyson]

I really like the SE, but if the Pyramid's insane buliding costs were reduced I don't think the extra research cost for Slavery would hurt the SE much. Are people using Representation before Libraries anyway?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Problem: The 'Mids were built by Egyptians, who were well-provided for. The pharaohs took it way too seriously to entrust it to slaves. It's not rocket science: Egyptian people would naturally care more about it(the Pharaoh was a god, after all!) and well-fed people work more efficiently longer.

I don't mind it coming at Masonry. I don't see how you could make a tech more OP than Bronze Working. Reveals bronze, allows you to chop forests, unlocks Slavery, and allows you to build Spearmen(with Hunting) and Axemen. Leads to IW(which you're going to want badly if you have jungles or no bronze)

Compared to Masonry...
Can build Walls, Pyramids, Great Wall, and Great Lighthouse(with Sailing and a lighthouse) Leads to Monotheism and Construction
The former isn't very valuable unless you can snag it early enough for Judaism, and the latter is expensive early and requires Maths anyways. Chop-rushing, not pop-rushing, is the most efficient way to speed up a wonder. How is this getting Slavery more OP than BW getting Slavery?

 

[Silence101]

I really like the SE, but if the Pyramid's insane buliding costs were reduced I don't think the extra research cost for Slavery would hurt the SE much. Are people using Representation before Libraries anyway?

I meant more in terms of having to choose between researching masonry > slavery vs. BW. On the one hand, you get chopping and copper / on the other you get slavery and the chance to build pyramids.

I guess it would still feasable to research BW first and then masonry followed by slavery, but I think it would add a new demension to the early representation SE.

Edit: Although, come to think of it, it's only one extra tech... just delays the slavery civic a little bit. It may not end up being a big difference overall. Still, I think it might be a good way to set up the tech tree - I'd have to try it a few times to see how it plays out.

 

[isau]

I actually moved Slavery to Masonry in my mod and have been fairly pleased with the results. (I also made Bronze Working require Hunting).

Isau