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Theorycrafting - Early General Strategies - Bonus Content: The Death of Tall v Wide

Theorycrafting - Early General Strategies - Bonus Content: The Death of Tall v Wide

  1. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    Depends on your definition of "empire". Sounds like yours died.

    I generally don't want to spread to every nook and cranny like a cockroach although I can see how people like to "blob" as in EU4.
     
  2. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Yeah, good riddance ICS
     
  3. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    "Cockroaching" as a playstyle. Doesn't seem to encompass quite what I'm after in my desire for a massive civ, but I accept the term and will continue to use it.

    Hence forth you may refer to me as a 'cockroacher.'
     
  4. Abraxis

    Abraxis Emperor

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    Original post is so filled with presumption based on personal bias it makes it tedious as hell to read and sift out the objective fact, as someone coming for the potential strategic information, to be bombarded with personal complaints about Firaxis' design direction.

    Not sure what your objective is, but you should change the title, if you want to talk about the validity of their design decisions, or remove your complaints if you want to talk about strategy otherwise you're just coming off as obnoxious and antagonistic.
     
  5. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    :lol: - Yea, I love building huge cities, just not 20 of them. Everybody's different though.

    I watch Quill18 play once in a while and he never saw a small piece of land he didn't like. I wouldn't say he spams cities but builds way more than I ever would. It will be interesting to see how 6 plays out. Building cities looks fun and challenging with the map being so important now. We just need to fill in the information gaps.
     
  6. Cyon

    Cyon Cosmonaut

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    It just occurred to me that building buildings is something that is a lot more situational in civ 6. A good placed district can yield you 3-6 of its intrinsic yield, with the right policy card that yield is doubled! So 6-12 science from a well placed campus compared to 2 science from a library. Really the use of a library is if you have nothing else to build, only have poor campus on locations or for the GS points. I guess that the latter is the most important reason to build buildings - to get great person points.

    Are there any buildings that have really good yield compared to the district themselves?

    Not counting monument, granary and water mill.
     
  7. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    This is the best article I've read in civfanatics in a while. GJ ! Very interresting read and a very plausible inference of the information we have so far !
     
  8. demidyad

    demidyad Warlord

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    Wtf? Are we in the same thread?

    Great thread chaotoroboto :goodjob:
     
  9. chaotoroboto

    chaotoroboto Warlord

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    Many late game district buildings seem to have specialist slots, letting you work the tile again. We don't really know how that will play out, if they will generate the tile yield or just the slot yield like buildings in 5, or if the slot will create additional GP Points.

    I think if you're playing a generalist approach then any cities that generate science had better generate as much science as possible. So if all your cities have campuses, then probably only some need the buildings; if only your capital has a campus then it better have every building.

    I had originally spoiler-tagged the front end of that post because I was concerned about exactly that. However, many people have entered the game with 5, and I thought it was important to show that Tall versus Wide wasn't always the primary economic dichotomy in the Civ series, and in fact was relatively recent.

    Without that specific piece of data, I was worried it might be hard for some readers to digest the idea that the economic strategies in 6 all can function both as tall and wide strategies - they're more based on how you lay out cities than how many you build, and having built them, what you devote their non-military production towards.

    Without having access to the game itself, both for the purposes of building illustrations and mathing out actual scenarios, there's a limit to valid theory-crafting. I tried to find that range in the second part of the OP, and I hope you'll skip the opening and re-read it. I tried to include as many new, specific ideas for how to build out various strategies as possible without being (and you can see that I have this issue) overly wordy.
     
  10. Cyon

    Cyon Cosmonaut

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    Thought it looks like the specialist only gives two extra yield, if they give great people points as well then there would be a point to have them.

    If they would multiple the district yield then it would give you crazy much, so I think that is unlikely. Sure you will build buildings some times but I don't think it will always be a priority.
     
  11. Fede1893

    Fede1893 Chieftain

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    (feeling a bit shy considering it's my fist real post, hope I'm not saying something too stupid!)

    To me, considering the current limited info there are 2 main strategies that are sort of wide or tall: playing the map (wide) and playing the abilities (tall)

    Playing the map:
    In Civ VI it seems the actual map layout is crucial, both in warfare (movement limits, defense bonuses, can only disembark on beach) and in city building (wonder restrictions and adjacency bonuses).
    In this strategy you take a civ suited to play wide or that has bonuses linked to exploration / conquest / foreign continents (e.g.: England for trade and bonus unit, Spain for religion and military bonus, Aztecs for military and lux). You try to grab most of the land and its luxuries and exploit them. Always being very careful in using the map to your advantage for economic (city between ocean and river with bonus and lux res.) and military purpose (cities covered by natural barriers) You will have less pop per city so you can harvest everything you don't need for fast boosts to food/production/gold. You try to conquer / spread. Trade routes go from the center of your empires outbound, either to new cities or to far foreign cities to gain gold (needed to levy military and buy buildings and tiles in the far cities) and spread your religion. You will try to befriend far city states to have mercenaries to levy around the map and good trade routes yields, nearby CS are probably a target to conquer at the beginning with minor to none warmonger penalty. Use Spies to steal gold, sabotage production and lower the defense of your next targeted city to conquer.
    Preferred objective is domination or religion. If you get stuck you can try to switch to science or if desperate just keep your score high until the end. Cultural victory would be very hard (Diplo not present for now...).

    Playing the abilities:
    You care less about the map and more about the micro management. You take a civ with strong bonuses toward a specific victory or with abilities that are less linked to the map (e.g.: India for faith, Japan for district adjacency and electronics factory, France) and you build only a bunch of tall developed cities (maybe 6 or 8?) one next to the other.
    Focus on Great persons and wonders. When you have a superior military force you don't invade, you pillage the enemy districts (especially the ones linked to your preferred victory), kill the enemy trade routes and occupy the wonders. Focus on befriending city states that suit your specific needs. Trade routes go from your boundaries to your center to boost food and prod for specialists/wonders. Use Spies to steal science and sabotage culture / improve tourism (if possible).
    Preferred victories are culture and science. Score should be doable. Religion and Domination unlikely (again no Diplo victory...).

    Sorry for the long post.
     
  12. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Mmm, theorycrafting, yummy!:D

    No-District Campus Rex

    Open with two scouts so you can plan early where your cities will be going and to increase the likelihood of finding villages for extra pop, then focus exclusively on growth while popping out a couple of builders for any luxes nearby (plus you're going to want both food and production improvements to build settlers quickly and to recover from the population loss). Then focus on building as much military as possible to secure your future borders, dissuade other civs from attacking, bully city-states, fog bust and clear barbs. *Maybe* throw in a Monument if the city doesn't have great growth tiles, and a Water Mill to increase housing if it does. Be sure save all your gold for purchasing tiles in your expands in order to place their Campuses asap.

    Whatever you do, *do not build any districts!* Since districts' costs go up for each one built, you are going to want your cheapest districts in cities with the least production. This is the crux of the build, otherwise it's just a normal Rex.:p

    When you've reached one citizen below the housing limit in your capital it will be time to switch over to production and start alternating settlers and builders (while you recover the population loss) to follow the settlers and Rex your heart out! Bonus points for lining it up so that you grow to housing cap on the same turn you finish your settlers.;) Try to secure as many good Campus sites as possible. Once all your planned cities are founded, figure out which has the least production potential and start your first Campus there, then your next worst for the second, etc. in order to maximize production. Since your most recent city will probably be the weakest, it would probably be wise to not start (or maybe finish, depending on the mechanics, see below) any districts in any cities until you have them all down. This will also allow them to grow and pop out a builder while they wait.

    Questions regarding escalating district costs that could affect this strat:
    • Does the cost go up for each one started or for each one completed? If the latter, this strat could possibly continue to pop 4 in each city (or immediately if Germany), making sure that no city actually completes it's first district putting one turn into the second district before finishing the first so the cost doesn't go up.
    • Does the cost go up for each type of district individually? If so, then this strat could be used universally throughout the game as new districts are unlocked and population requirements met. Also if this is the case, one could do a religion-rush strat alternating Holy Districts and Campuses.
    • If costs are based on completed districts, do they adjust dynamically? So if I have a city with a district that will finish in one turn and a city with one that will finish in two turns, will the latter go up next turn, making it not finish the next turn? This could cause a lot of micromanagement headaches, you'll want to ensure that as many districts as possible finish on any given turn.

    Tech path doesn't really matter that much with this build - you'll more than catch up later - just make sure you have Writing by the time you have your cities down.

    As for civics, Craftsmanship first is pretty much a no-brainer for the +1 prod and faster builder policies, then head for Early Empire for faster settlers, and since you're there you might as well head for Political Philosophy for governments or grab Drama and Poetry for the Theater District

    Best Civs: Aztec (Eagle Warriors, rushing districts), Germany (extra district), Japan (3 faster districts, easier placement), Brazil (jungles! need I say more?). To a lesser degree: Egypt (river district bonus), China (better workers), and America and Scythia for their early unit strength.

    Wonders: None.
     
  13. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    1) You need to defend all those districts because they will be pillaged, both by barbarians and the AI.
    2) You can't get everything with science, you'll need culture too.
     
  14. chaotoroboto

    chaotoroboto Warlord

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    This forum is for Civ, so we tend to favor longer and more in-depth than maybe you'd see elsewhere; and I think the quality of your post in particular means you can cast aside your shyness for this venue.

    I think your basic strategies are right, but unless there's a brake on number of cities that we haven't seen yet, I think that both of them will eventually grow to whatever your natural boundaries are - mountains, deserts, oceans, and competing empires.

    Your "Play the Map" concept will tend to see cities looser-packed, so that when a new citizen is born they have access to the best tile that isn't currently worked; you don't want too much city overlap because then you might have too many citizens working sub-optimal tiles. Given the constraints, it would suck to have to use a builder charge to farm a tile that you don't really like.

    Your "Play the Abilities" Concept will probably see cities denser packed, so the when you build a new district it gets bonuses from districts in neighboring cities as well. You're not worried about tile yield (food and gears and coins) so much as you are about what districts are legal to place where.

    If history is a guide, Civ as a series has been bad at checking stuff like "Is this the second district that Seek built this turn?" and you'll get away with having them all for the first district price if - and only if - you game it so all your districts are finished on the same turn.

    He does say to build military until you start pushing up against the Housing Cap in order to clear your area and fog bust, so you should be able to defend as you enter the second phase of the build-out.

    I expect that some builds will be able to defer on civics and prioritize techs in the early game, just taking whichever civics they get inspiration for, researched with whatever culture occurs organically in their empire. Probably about the point the AI is getting mid-game governments you will need to have pivoted into a fuller culture game though.
     
  15. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    My conclusion from gameplay videos and info released is that starting the game with a preconcieved strategy regarding city/district/improvement placement might not be possible in Civ VI.

    Adjacency bonuses for districts are massive, so much so, in fact, that any worthwhile strategy must take into account the map/starting location. We might need to get used to creating strategies around certain terrain features, rather than trying to impose our vision and ignoring the map.

    This doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the strategies proposed in this thread, of course.
     
  16. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    One problem with the "Campus Rex" strategy I can think of is that you need a city to have 3 pops before you can build your first district. This is potentially quite a long wait for your worst city to grow to that size.

    It just seems like a hell of a lot lost opportunity.
     
  17. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Excellent Post Fede :goodjob:, nothing to be shy about.

    I personally have always played "Square" in Civ5, Spread out Civ's with tiles micro managed. Generally with a bias one way or the other. I do have a bad habit of wanting all the "Good City Spots" and this sometimes makes me expand too quick.

    My current game was borderline, 3 cities before National College(beelined) but it ended up alright. I do have a feeling i overcooked the growth/Number of Cities Bias. The entire game i have been bouncing from Happiness boost to Happiness Boost, barely keeping up with rampant Population Unhappiness. I cant remember exactly but at 400 turns of an Epic Game I have 250-280 total Population.( 4 Cities above 30, 8 between 20-30, 2 newbies around 10 and growing fast). I have a funny feeling i will be spending the last 50 Turns churning out a science victory whilst dealing with Rebellions...S'all good i got good army and i am playing as Monty, more Culture for me. :)
     
  18. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    Going back to the OP, I wonder how viable a priori strategies like this will be in Civ 6. The devs have stated repeatedly that their goal was to invalidate such strategies by more contextual gameplay (through increasing the importance of the terrain, as well as eurekas/inspirations etc.)

    At the same time, a lot of civilizations seem to have diverse abilities which could work under many different playstyles.

    Now, obviously, people will still be able to find better strategies than others, but I think it will be more limited than what has been happening in earlier civs.
     
  19. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    I just noticed this post - making essentially the same point as I did in my previous one. :)

    As you say yourself, having one city with a Campus located in a golden spot (e.g. next to three mountains) is going to be superior than having three cities wth a Campus each, located in the middle of plains. This makes a strategy like the "Campus Rex" presented above fairly inapplicable.
     
  20. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    1) Sure, that's why I suggested focusing on military and ignoring infrastructure during the cap's build up phase. The strat doesn't necessarily revolve entirely around campuses also, it's more about avoiding/gaming the district cost increases; so if your blocker cities are vulnerable, by all means go for an Encampment in them first.

    2) Theater Districts are relatively late, coming at the expense of governments if rushed, which seems to me a fairly huge opportunity cost. Also, adjacency bonuses for them are extremely weak in comparison to other more terrain-based districts, so in other words you'll want to start popping them out later when you can get more district adjacencies. In the meantime Monuments should carry you.

    In the (in)famous livestream we can see that districts are available at pop 1, 4, 7, etc. so one can start the districts immediately (though it could be worthwhile to grow the first cities planted to up your production in them while the later cities are still going up). Edit: Moreover, the growth formula seems a bit faster with small cities than in Civ 5.

    At 18:55 you can see the brand new city can build a district:
    Spoiler :


    EDIT: Sorry, forgot to respond to this
    One needn't go for a Campus in every city if there are no decent spots, it is more about figuring out how to maximize efficiency with the cost increases. It's just that the Campus has the most "bang for your buck" compared to other districts, and on top of that it's extremely early, so it was the logical district to focus on. Who knows, maybe (and I hope so) it will be a better approach to spread out the district types and not focus on one type to start.
     

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