There are more of us than there are of them

[Hygro]

Liberals in the USA vs conservatives, that is.

Lexicus got it last time.

We have a fundamental problem on the broader left in the USA which is squeamishness. Y’all got to put that aside for this plan to work.

We are very affected by the people we spend time with. If we adopt conservatives into our friend groups they will be moved. So will we, but there’s more of us, so they’ll be moved more, and that’s more important since electorally they have a minority advantage given the federalist system so we need to move them a lot for very basic and not even very left wing changes need to be made (climate, tax code, industry reregulation, government programs etc)

I have another piece of this equation which involves us buying armalites but we’ll save that for another thread.

It’s time to save America, liberals, and make the ultimate sacrifice and hang out with right wingers. Just bring a friend.

 

[Narz]

Liberals aren't going to "save America".

If "Rocking the vote" and believing in hope & change were going to work I think it already would have.

Still I will vote for the 1st time in my life in 2020 but I'm not fooling myself into thinking it is of much significance or that things will radically alter in time to divert catastrophe even if Sanders or Yang wins.

Also pure #'s mean jack. There are around the same numbers or Jews and Native Americans in the US, no one would argue their influence is equal

 

[Arwon]

Or? Fix the electoral system's numerous deliberately designed and frequently racist barriers to electoral participation?

 

[Hygro]

Or? Fix the electoral system's numerous deliberately designed and frequently racist barriers to electoral participation?

Yayyy let’s buck responsibility great answer

 

[Truthy]

Liberals in the USA vs conservatives, that is.

Lexicus got it last time.

We have a fundamental problem on the broader left in the USA which is squeamishness. Y’all got to put that aside for this plan to work.

We are very affected by the people we spend time with. If we adopt conservatives into our friend groups they will be moved. So will we, but there’s more of us, so they’ll be moved more, and that’s more important since electorally they have a minority advantage given the federalist system so we need to move them a lot for very basic and not even very left wing changes need to be made (climate, tax code, industry reregulation, government programs etc)

I have another piece of this equation which involves us buying armalites but we’ll save that for another thread.

It’s time to save America, liberals, and make the ultimate sacrifice and hang out with right wingers. Just bring a friend.

I don't even know any rightwingers. Where am I supposed to find them? How can I be sure they even exist? Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

 

[Zardnaar]

Broadly speaking yes but it's not an overwhelming amount.

Both sides are playing for keeps say abortion being a prime example.

A compromise would be some red states may ban it but both sides want their one true way at the federal level so the situation is a mess.

I suspect in 10 or 15 years time electoral reform might be more appealing say to the GoP as they will need votes from California or New York and Texas to win.

That will be around the same time they lose 2 or 3 consecutive elections in Florida or Texas.

 

[Arwon]

Yayyy let’s buck responsibility great answer

You're right I never even voted for the democrats, I am the problem

 

[Hygro]

You're right I never even voted for the democrats, I am the problem

we can still use your help from afar

 

[Arwon]

Okay and I'm helping you by reminding you not to lose sight of electoral reform being the single biggest game in town.

Rather than blaming conservatives for being conservative (or obsessing over like Russian interference, or getting on one's high horse post election and blaming non voters), look at why lines are so long in urban minority areas, why voter registrations are so fragmented and inconsistent, why felons get disenfranchised, why early and postal voting is oftne so inaccessible, why rules get designed to actually scare minorities away from the ballot box, why electoral rolls get purged, why legislatures draw their own electoral boundaries, and how to fix those things.

As long as you don't have free and fair elections, being nice to the oppressors isn't going to help a whole lot. This is the whole fight.

 

[Hygro]

You really don’t think you can do it do you...

 

[Arwon]

Hey last time I was in the US I convinced multiple republican voters on the virtues of universal healthcare, if you wanna pay for my plane ticket I can go on another bar tour

 

[Hygro]

Hey last time I was in the US I convinced multiple republican voters on the virtues of universal healthcare, if you wanna pay for my plane ticket I can go on another bar tour

That’s what I’m talking about!

 

[Zardnaar]

A few Republicans here like universal health Care as well.

They're the more traditional Republicans of tire though not Trump's motley collection and the religious right.

 

[Hygro]

I don't even know any rightwingers. Where am I supposed to find them? How can I be sure they even exist? Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

I know a few. One of them pretty apolitical. He has serious problems with people outside straight and cis, at least conceptually. Many of you in other threads have talked about cutting such friends out. You know what this dude said to me when I was telling him about throwing a queer-scene after hours party before Texas? I was like, probably not your scene. He was like “probably not but I’m working on that”. The idea that it could be something he sees as personal problem to work on is a huge breakthrough. This guy is going to be here whether we know him or not. He’ll be here for decades more like the rest of us.

Us slowly pulling him along moderates him, and doesn’t turn us rightwing. But cutting him out for politics will leave him the way he started. How is that better?

 

[Synobun]

I know a few. One of them pretty apolitical. He has serious problems with people outside straight and cis, at least conceptually. Many of you in other threads have talked about cutting such friends out. You know what this dude said to me when I was telling him about throwing a queer-scene after hours party before Texas? I was like, probably not your scene. He was like “probably not but I’m working on that”. The idea that it could be something he sees as personal problem to work on is a huge breakthrough. This guy is going to be here whether we know him or not. He’ll be here for decades more like the rest of us.

Us slowly pulling him along moderates him, and doesn’t turn us rightwing. But cutting him out for politics will leave him the way he started. How is that better?

I mean, he recognizes that it's prejudice. That's a significant step ahead of the norm. Most people I know who hold such views tend to hold them proudly, especially in defiance of the social shift. The kind of person to accept your hand if they're hanging off a cliff and using it as an opportunity to drive a blade in your ribs. Your generosity is a weakness, one they have no qualms exploiting.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

There comes a point where one must break through the hazy fog of civility and decorum and be forthright about the enemy within; right wingers. They are not our friends and they are not redeemable for as long as they are willing to enable Republicans.

They would impoverish and ruin their own lives as long as someone else, usually minorities, are treated like second class citizens. No amount of reasoning can dissuade them from their desire to feel above or superior to people of color, LGBTQ people, Hispanics etc.

 

[Hygro]

There comes a point where one must break through the hazy fog of civility and decorum and be forthright about the enemy within; right wingers. They are not our friends and they are not redeemable for as long as they are willing to enable Republicans.

They would impoverish and ruin their own lives as long as someone else, usually minorities, are treated like second class citizens. No amount of reasoning can dissuade them from their desire to feel above or superior to people of color, LGBTQ people, Hispanics etc.

This is exactly not what I'm discussing.

But if you think you have no personal influence on the people in your life, I am sorry. This disempowerment seems to be a problem, it's like a whole team of people thinking they personally lack the social skills to effect change so the only option is to be saved from the outside, somehow.

We literally outnumber them. People change with exposure. The only thing stopping us is ourselves, our own fear and our own desire to keep our easy narratives. The resistance I'm seeing in this thread is a defense against personal change. It's a lot easier to say it's hopeless. I reject this defeatism.

 

[Gorbles]

This is exactly not what I'm discussing.

But if you think you have no personal influence on the people in your life, I am sorry. This disempowerment seems to be a problem, it's like a whole team of people thinking they personally lack the social skills to effect change so the only option is to be saved from the outside, somehow.

We literally outnumber them. People change with exposure. The only thing stopping us is ourselves, our own fear and our own desire to keep our easy narratives. The resistance I'm seeing in this thread is a defense against personal change. It's a lot easier to say it's hopeless. I reject this defeatism.

I think an important clarification is to note that this reaching out comes with a degree of risk, especially if the person reaching out is marginalised. If you can do this (without yourself being radicalised), more power to you. But not everyone has that privilege.

 

[Truthy]

I know a few. One of them pretty apolitical. He has serious problems with people outside straight and cis, at least conceptually. Many of you in other threads have talked about cutting such friends out. You know what this dude said to me when I was telling him about throwing a queer-scene after hours party before Texas? I was like, probably not your scene. He was like “probably not but I’m working on that”. The idea that it could be something he sees as personal problem to work on is a huge breakthrough. This guy is going to be here whether we know him or not. He’ll be here for decades more like the rest of us.

Us slowly pulling him along moderates him, and doesn’t turn us rightwing. But cutting him out for politics will leave him the way he started. How is that better?

I take your point and I'm much more of a mistake theorist than a conflict theorist, so I pretty much agree with it too. But I think you understand that the filter is very strong, even if you're not deliberately filtering people out. As far as I can tell, I rarely even encounter Trump supporters anywhere near my age. And if I do, I probably dislike them for other reasons before politics explicitly comes up.

I think I know exactly one Trump supporter who is both somewhere around my age and at least sort of tolerable (but frankly, I mostly disliked him for years before I found out he liked Trump). I'll probably end up playing a game of Diplomacy with him in a few weeks. I can promise you I'll happily ally with him against my gay Muslim friend (who is friends with the Trump supporter) if it helps me win. As an aside, and this will sound contradictory, it doesn't seem super novel to me that a Trump supporter is friends with a gay Muslim.

I wanna hear the gun part of the equation. If the plan is for blue tribers to go to shooting ranges and drink beer and fire AR-15s, that sounds like a lot of fun and would probably end the gun debate in the US.

 

[MaryKB]

I understand what you're trying to say, but I feel you're being incredibly naive (or worse) I agree with you in principle, it'd be really nice if we could just show love to everyone, and honestly in my life I'm never mean to anyone, and I am open to people who disagree with my politically. I have a friend from work who's a very staunch republican, and he and I get along fine (as long as we're not talking politics!) It really baffles my mind how anyone can support what's going on.

But you've got to remember, while we do outnumber them, many are fanatics. They're not listening to you, they're listening to Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, etc. And it's not just political, it's also at a cultural level like with Jordan Petersen and Joe Rogan. And they even listen to Donald Trump, they believe whatever he says as absolute truth (oh dear, remember that recent NOAA thing?) They've undergone decades of being brainwashed by FOX news to believe whatever they're told by their Dark Masters, do you really feel you're going to be able to reverse that by being a friend?

And also I agree with @Arwon, they're not playing a game of good faith and trying to convince voters. They're trying to rig the system, by disenfranchising entire groups and putting up barriers to democracy. They don't believe in democracy and are trying to undermine it at every opportunity, you really think if you just try to win individual peoples' hearts you're going to change anything? I feel like what you're saying is similar to one of those people touting "holistic medicine" when what we really need is a proper surgeon to remove our cancer. Lighting some incense and singing songs won't make your cancer go away.