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There's a serious flaw in diplomacy

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Bibor, May 11, 2019.

  1. Bechhold

    Bechhold Chieftain

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    The fact that Diplomacy does not have a feature to suggest/demand that another Civ make Peace with another, whether it is a Civ or CS, is horrible. This coincides with Civ V where City States contribute nothing on the international scene to create tension among the competing Civilizations. Or even throw possible Diplomatic curve balls at players. For example City State's having their own set of foreign policy goals towards other City State's nearby. One DoW on other that is allied with another Civ. All of a sudden you could have the potential of a small war becoming a big one. Or even creating a proxy war. None of that is possible.
     
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  2. qadams

    qadams Bohemian

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    I know. I keep looking for that button, even knowing it's not there, because it should be! :wallbash:
     
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  3. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    Being able to gift units would be a welcome change.

    Otherwise they should make CS really, really tough to conquer like in civV (carpets of units). Perhaps +combat strength from envoys could apply to all units and not just the city center. Also, allow them to heal despite being surrounded (like Victor's promotion). Make it such that fighting them would be so costly that only civs with a specific bonus (Germany) would find it worth the effort.
     
  4. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    The OP mentioned civs demanding you pay them tons of money for peace. Since the last patch I have noticed this as well and it makes me have to wipe them out. Sometimes that is a complete and utter waste of my time, never mind the fact that I usually do that anyway.

    Bring back vassalage I say. If I beat you into a pulp, capitulation should be the only option, and they should become my puppet for the rest of the game.
     
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  5. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    This is a really good discussion in this thread. I hope someone from Firaxis sees this thread. Anyone else feel like the Grievance system should have different weights (numbers), per AI, depending upon how much they like you or dislike you? The flat numbers of 100 that apply to any AI for a formal war, makes no sense at all. They could even go percentage based at it would be better than the flat numbers, if done right.
     
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  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I think it already is weighted. Grievances generated differ from leader to leader depending on whether they are at war with them; usually it takes a while for the person you're in a joint war in to have any too.

    All they really need here is another request to not attack their city state, and refusing generates like extra grievances+ instant CB. I'd honestly just remove the requirement for Protectorate War period; it'll be a buff to Georgia! The other thing is simply forbid attacking allied CS's period.

    Alternatively, you should be able to declare a liberation war if a CS gets conquered.Otherwise, you're forced to do a Protectorate War before the CS falls and this is little more than an annoyance.

    Outside of this, diplomacy is fine
     
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  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    All good ideas. I think they could be combined.
    (a) no attacking CS when you're allied to their suzerain
    (b) requests to halt any war against a CS for whom you've placed envoys (with more grievances the more envoys you have)
    (c) protectorate war remain available for attacks on your CS, but liberation wars also open up if the CS is conquered, with liberation war available to any civ which had envoys in the CS before conquest
     
  8. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Chieftain

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    a) is too harsh and wouldn't mirror backstabbing by allies (it happens u know)
    b) is just for building up your grievance account. @Archon_Wing s suggestions would be more on spot.
    c) looks good to me but maybe have at least 3 or 6 envoys there...

    Recently I had another issue: I resurrected Phoenicia from the dead out of the middle of Mongols territory and since we hadn't had open borders (she was dead before, remember!?) my armies jumped out of her territory in all directions being potentially beaten by a competent opponent...:rolleyes:
    If you resurrect a civ you should at least have open borders with them from the start if not starting with declared friendship status...
     
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  9. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    A big YES to all of that. Although now sometimes you can call an Emergency to liberate a freshly fallen city state, iirc.

    Not quite, as an example below shows.

    Oh, yes, I've ran into this kind of situation as well, I've even written a mild rant about it and some other things. There was a similar problem in Civ V too, until at last they've solved it with the "Recalled to Life" attitude for the resurrected nation, giving the liberator big diplo bonuses. Why wasn't this done here from the very start?

    Also, the caller of an Emergency should have an option to refuse those AIs willing to join, if the caller is at war with those AIs at that moment. The auto peace feature can create big annoyances, when it stops your conquest you had no intention to stop or gives an aggressor a free hand to beat your weaker allies unpunished, if those allies did not join in the Emergency.

    And in general, I'd like they reviewed the diplo more broadly. A DOF being 100% guarantee of peace, 10 turns immunity from attack after a peace deal, teleporting units out of the territory after open borders agreement lapse or similar are just too gamey and too absolute. There is always a possibility of breach and it should be so in the game too.

    As for the rules on borders and territory, I'd prefer a return to something similar, as it was in Civ 3. Units could wander into a foreign territory without an open borders or right of passage agreements, and severity of such a breach could depend on the era. Now the closing of borders is decided by only one tech. And, who or what, pray, physically prevents a unit going into an unoccupied tile, although somebody may think it belongs to them? At the same time, buying open borders is so ridiculously cheap, it just feels as another abuse of the AI and exploiting of that +25% tourism modifier. Idk, make it mutual only?

    Peace deal in Civ 3 meant peace for 20 turns or until war is redeclared - much more flexible - you can redeclare on the same turn :) Of course, to avoid excessive abuse of such system, grievances for such despicable acts should be very punishing.
     
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  10. qadams

    qadams Bohemian

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    I second the motion!
     
  11. Tyroq

    Tyroq Chieftain

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    Excellent stuff in this thread. Diplomacy in 6 really is the game's #1 shortcoming. There's got to be a way to get these things implemented. I third @Trav'ling Canuck 's post about combining these ideas.
    I had a situation where Brazil was attacking one of my suz CS, and I couldn't levy troops to protect it because the poor CS didn't have any! I didn't want to declare a protectorate war because I had a lot of good trades going on with Brazil, plus I had several trade routes going through his territory to my ally on the other side, and I didn't want to risk losing them to pillaging either. *sigh* So annoying that I couldn't just call ol' Pedro up and tell him to knock it off!
     
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  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    You do get a very large bonus for resurrecting a civ and it was insanely abusive in R&F. You could have full alliances in a domination game. Yes, the auto pushing is stupid but that's more of a game mechanic issue.
     
  13. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Chieftain

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    You get +20 for the first City no more for more whatsoever. On emperor that is, don't remember if it scales. I got - 21 for grievances with other civs mainly the Mongols that wiped them out. So seriously that's not sufficient. As I said, open borders or declared friend would be enough I am not asking for permanent alliances...
    And if auto pushing is game mechanic it should change. Period.
     
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  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    It also reduces grievances too.... Unless you wiped them out in the first place, it's likely they'll get to be a friend. In Rise and Fall, as long as you liberated a city once in a while, it was easy to keep friendship with all civs unless you occupied their city, and there were ways around it.

    Diplomacy is very easy in GS still to manage in my experience.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Agree. Diplomacy has always been fairly straight forward.
    Well tmed you can often ally with practically everyone.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I'll post an example when I get back

    I could have better relations if I were to give a single city back (removes the occupy city penalty and grievances), but I choose not to, because screw them. If one has too many grievances, it really has little other reason other than greed, and thus somewhat deserved....
     
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  17. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Chieftain

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    I have no problem with managing diplomacy whatsoever. My grievances in this specific game came from converting due to pursuing RV. Issues are specific situations like described in this thread. CS Ally attack issues and resurrections are handled badly. That's about it. :p
     
  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    So here's an example. I fought 3 wars in this game. First one was when Shaka surprised war me so I conquered most of his cities, then I attacked China because I didn't like him and swiped a city from him (used holy war excuse) and freed the Dutch from the Persians (another Holy War) but kept cities for myself. In the actual game I never made peace with Cyrus because it was more about hurting him and reducing his culture/freeing Netherlands so the grievances are much lower since I didn't get any from occupation. So here I make peace and see how bad it gets.




    Cyrus, of course he hates me.
    Spoiler :


    Sulieman (Ally)
    Spoiler :


    Dido (Ally)
    Spoiler :


    Wihelema (friendly)
    Spoiler :


    Gitarja (Neutral)
    Spoiler :


    Shaka hates me because I took most of his cities.


    But look what happens when I return a crappy city (which would rebel against him anyways immediately)

    Spoiler :




    lol.
     

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  19. SaiH

    SaiH Chieftain

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    As far as I know, when you trade a city, this city becomes immune to your loyality pressure.
     
  20. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    In any case, diplomatic favor is in the game. And I like diplomatic favor as a currency very much. Firaxis now needs to expand on it and offer us meaningful ways to play the diplomatic/espionage game as another proper layer (along with culture/tourism, religion etc.)
     
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