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These huge military gaps surely need to be addressed?...

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by MrBlobby, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. MrBlobby

    MrBlobby Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Lancer -> Anti-tank gun
    Trireme -> Caravel

    There are others which I'm sure you will all mention, but these units in particular feel useful for a very limited time. And even then, they don't feel strong upon discovery.

    My suggestions:
    Trireme -> Hexareme -> Caravel
    Lancer -> Reiter -> Anti-tank gun
     
  2. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Missouri
    Trying to fill the Trireme to Caravel gap would be pointless with needing to return the ship back to your own territory to upgrade. (It really applies to all units to upgrade, but the main point of Trireme is to scout out via water all territory it can get to while getting back around the time you reach Caravel tech.)

    As to the Lancer to Anti-tank gun gap; it doesn't matter; each Lancer is a waste of a Calvary slot anyway with them each requiring a horse.
     
  3. Byzantine Bomb

    Byzantine Bomb Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Consider the frigate to battleship gap then. Pre-dreadnoughts or Dreadnoughts could fill that gap neatly.
     
  4. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,316
    The pike->Lancer ->Anti-Tank

    needs to be changed to

    Pike->Musket or Rifleman

    Lancer->Cavalry (maybe not obsolete until combustion/Railroad)

    Then have Anti-Tanks hard built.


    Triremes are still useful for taking cities when your major naval force is Galleasses
     
  5. TeriXeri

    TeriXeri Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Pikeman to Lancer to Anti Tank to Heli Gunship is the most drastic change in upgrades and unit types.

    ---- Spearman Role 2 movement (can fortify, get bonus from terrain, bonus vs mounted (50%))

    There are 3 UU's now for Spearman: And 1 UU that replaces them (Battering Ram, the Huns, different upgrade path though)
    -Pictish Warrior (Celts)
    -Immortal (Persia)
    -Hoplite (Greece)

    2 UU For Pikeman:
    -Impi (Zulu)
    -Landsknecht Social Policy

    ------- Lancer Era: Mounted unit, no defensive bonus, no fortify, -33% vs city, 4-5 movement

    3 UU for Lancer:
    -Hakkapeliitta (Sweden)
    -Sipahi (Ottoman)
    -Winged Hussar (Poland)

    ------Anti Tanks and Helicopters have no UU and change their roles into Anti-Armor

    -----Anti Tank: 2 movement, 100% vs Tanks, can fortify.

    -----Helicopter Gunship : 100% vs tanks, 1 movement per tile, hover, cannot capture city, no terrain bonus, 6 movement, still has to embark on water

    I think Pikemen should go to musket men, And Lancers should be an upgrade from knights (longsword to musketman is already a similar medieval to renaisance smaller upgrade.

    Anti tanks/Gunships should be their own category, with some tweaking to anti tank to maybe make it unable to capture cities and more appealing to use (helicopter hover over lakes/coast please)

    Landship-tank-modern armor should be their own category as well when horse-units become obsolete, maybe add some policy that adds some unique bonus to newly armor units on cities with a factory, in check with balance for (Autocracy Lightning Warfare) or kremlin's 50% production boost (Order), just to promote newly built units over just upgraded cavalry.

    Or add a new seperate building like a Vehicle Plant, that boosts production of land vehicles (including mechanized infantry and rocket artillery) by 15% if you have a coal tile. Sometimes you can end up with so much coal, and little use for them, especially when not going for Ironclads. I don't wanna make factory themself too overpowered however.

    I feel Caravel to Ironclad is a bit odd, but I guess the huge boost in strength makes up for it if you have coal.
     
  6. AmericanDestiny

    AmericanDestiny Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    44
    Yes something should be done, but really it's pointless to discuss since Civ 5 development is over. Go to the mod forum.
     
  7. Jampine

    Jampine Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
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    242
    Hoi, quit bashing the pike man upgrade tree, I have discovered something wonderful: POLISH HELICOPTERS!!!!1! Really, they retain their ability, making them knock back enemies and being to run basically everywhere. I'm wondering if Sweden's lancers retain their ability too? Great generals with a helis movement? SIGN ME UP!
     
  8. Astennu

    Astennu Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
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    Well, considering that knights/cavalry were the tanks of the ancient and medieval battlefield, it isn't too far fetched that pikemen upgrade into anti-tank guns and anti-armour gunships in later eras.
     
  9. Flyboy13

    Flyboy13 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
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    9
    People build/buy lancers?
     
  10. civ54lyfe

    civ54lyfe Prince

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    Dec 15, 2012
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    i'd suggest they examine the utter crappy uselessness of the anti-tank gun specifically.

    leave it totally crappy maybe, yet perhaps shorten the gigantic time period to Computers that converts the gun to a Helicopter? i mean cmon.


    also Flyboy, often times players just get stuck with Lancers as survivors of ancient units. and actually the Lancers sometimes have uses anyway (but yeah they're kinda crappy in the broad sense)
     
  11. Silverman6083

    Silverman6083 History-Lover

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    Jul 30, 2013
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    Location:
    Earth
    Spearmen->Pikemen->Lancer->Grenadier->Anti-Tank Riflemen->Anti-Tank Gun-> Anti-Tank Artillery->Gunship

    Trireme->Boarder->Caravel
     
  12. Mudrac

    Mudrac Orc Warchief

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    Location:
    Orgrimmar, Durotar, Kalimdor
    Well the land is not so bad since G&K, although there are still some oddities here and there, depends on the unit. But Navy definitely needs more work, both more units to fill in the gaps, and maybe even new Naval unit categories, siege units for example.
     
  13. Sharples

    Sharples Prince

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    United Kingdom, England
    In WWII, Anti-Tank guns weren't actually as useful as you'd think, you should read history and see how much Anti-Tanks failed :p
     
  14. civ54lyfe

    civ54lyfe Prince

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    is English your first language?
     
  15. SULOMON

    SULOMON Mod Civs Best Civs.

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    Well they were only responsible for destroying most of the enemy armored vehicles in war...
    On topic. Something definitely needs to be done about the pikeman, lancer, anti tank line. Maybe split into a defensive and offensive anti tank lines.
     
  16. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    The helicopter should be able to hover at least through lakes like it used to in civilization 2. As for upgrading sepahi and winged hussars into helicopters, they do keep the unique promotion.
     
  17. Helmling

    Helmling Philosopher King

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    Am I the only one who thinks that only infantry units should be able to upgrade?

    I mean, sure, you discover muskets, put them in your soldiers' hands. But how do guys on horseback "upgrade" to guys in tanks?

    We should have to build/organize whole new units at that point.
     
  18. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    Calgary
    My personal take on it is:

    Warrior --> Swordsman --> Longsword --> Musket --> etc
    Spearman --> Pikeman ---> Early Grave

    Pikes are expendable. If any of them survive, they're getting disbanded to save money.
     
  19. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    New York City, USA
    You're right. There should be a distinct line at gunpowder.

    I don't see how a swordsman and a musketman uses the same skills at all. They shouldn't be able to upgrade either.

    The "no upgrade" breaks should be between:
    Longswords/Terrico --> Muskets
    Xbow --> Gatling Gun
    Calvary --> Landship
    Lancer --> Anti-Tank

    Siege weapons should be able to continue to upgrade. The guy who operates a catapult has to do similar aiming/mathematics as the guy who's launching a rocket.

    Pikemen and Lancers, I actually feel are fine. Their skill is relative to defeating horses, using long pointy things.

    From a game-balance perspective, this will provide a clear break between medieval and renaissance warfare, and allow for creativity in the tech paths (e.g. there's no gain in getting muskets, so I can get to Longswords and then focus on infrastructure). It'll also encourage more early warfare for the AI, as these units are less valuable the closer they are to becoming obsolete. It will also provide a boost to the much neglected horse-units and siege units. Horse units (and Pike/Lancer) are useful for another era compared to their comrads, and siege units will continue to upgrade all game (like ships), to help offset their slow leveling curve.
     
  20. lokithepunishr

    lokithepunishr Warlord

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    That place West of Japan
    I'd like a unit between trireme and caravel, it seems like in 2000 years they'd make a new ship, on marathon thats like 400nturns, its a long time to wait for a new boat.

    Unless you're playing as dido those ships become useless very quick
     

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