They need to fix the AI joint war behavior

pietro1990

Prince
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Oct 3, 2016
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The Ai needs to change their attitude towards joint wars. Now they don't take positive modifiers in to account. So if they are friendly they will still declare war


look at this lets play :

Look at minute 39 :50 Ai declares on minute 40

India and the cree do a joint war although they both are friendly( green faces with positive modifiers). I can still see why india did it but that cree does i don't get it. The cree are on the other side of the map and have to move a lot of tiles to get to the player is still a question


Am i the only one who is annoyed by this behavior? I've had Ai who where my declared friend accept a joint war against me just because i didn't renew my friendship( i was one turn to late)
 
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imo, joint war is a mess in every way. Not only do AI civs declare war against friendly nations, they declare war with zero sense of their own interests. And then, more often than not, one (often both) neglect to send any troops into battle, and then they offer all kinds of stuff in exchange for peace.

From my perspective, this is one of the weakest points in the current game design. And as far as I can tell, it exists almost solely to tick you off at your opponents, so that you are motivated. (In my view, this was one of the weaknesses of Civ 5. Opponents had little personality and it was easy to feel apathetic about them. Seems to me that Civ 6 set out to correct this problem, and joint war is just a tool to accomplish that.)
 
Same thing happened to me yesterday. John Curtin declared joint wars on me 3 times with different allies despite having no negative multipliers and something like 30+ points positive. I had even freed 2 city states which fit his agenda.

One of which he ended up taking back himself. Hawks of war my foot :rolleyes:
 
Honestly, diplomatic AI in general seems to be the biggest failing. Warmonger civs don't seem to attack neighbors properly (except city-states, whom they annihilate as if they got paid extra to do so... side note, taking city-states out early is harder than taking civs out early!).

1) AI agendas don't have coded modifiers on them (France gets bent if you don't have spies... on turn 20).
2) Joint wars are completely nonsensical
3) warmonger penalties are all kinds of screwed up, defensive wars and offensive wars are almost exactly the same
4) AI doesn't take relative power into account when making demands (or in joint wars), which is weird since we know they understand it ("they are afraid of you").
5) AI doesn't understand that it's better to attack neighbors right next to them than people across the ocean.

I'm hoping for a "Spring Diplomacy Patch". I'm almost certain to be disappointed. I know there are some mods that partially address this (I use the reduced warmonger one, but that's only 1 of 5), but I think this is going to require so much deeper fixes than surface passes.
Same thing happened to me yesterday. John Curtin declared joint wars on me 3 times with different allies despite having no negative multipliers and something like 30+ points positive. I had even freed 2 city states which fit his agenda.

One of which he ended up taking back himself. Hawks of war my foot :rolleyes:
Pro-tip, John Curtain has never seen a joint-war declaration he didn't like. And then he will denounce you as a warmonger.
 
Honestly, diplomatic AI in general seems to be the biggest failing. Warmonger civs don't seem to attack neighbors properly (except city-states, whom they annihilate as if they got paid extra to do so... side note, taking city-states out early is harder than taking civs out early!).

1) AI agendas don't have coded modifiers on them (France gets bent if you don't have spies... on turn 20).
2) Joint wars are completely nonsensical
3) warmonger penalties are all kinds of screwed up, defensive wars and offensive wars are almost exactly the same
4) AI doesn't take relative power into account when making demands (or in joint wars), which is weird since we know they understand it ("they are afraid of you").
5) AI doesn't understand that it's better to attack neighbors right next to them than people across the ocean.

I'm hoping for a "Spring Diplomacy Patch". I'm almost certain to be disappointed. I know there are some mods that partially address this (I use the reduced warmonger one, but that's only 1 of 5), but I think this is going to require so much deeper fixes than surface passes.

Pro-tip, John Curtain has never seen a joint-war declaration he didn't like. And then he will denounce you as a warmonger.

Trust me if you are hoping for diplomacy fixes in the expansion you will be disappointed. This video i showed was from the rise and fall expansion. These are some examples why I think the civ 6 AI diplomacy will be the same as in vanilla game.

Ai agenda will still be a problem
in the live stream where they showed the emergencies with Georgia we noticed the Dutch Ai gets angry if you don't trade with them although we don't have any available trade routes. So there you go Netherlands will denounce you if she is on the other side of the continent and you aren't able to send a trade route to her. instead of making the agenda if you are able to send a trade route and you don't she dislikes you.

At minute 48:32

To high warmonger penalties
In the live stream with Scotland we noticed warmonger penalty is still very high they used a formal war denouncing france and declaring war which caused Mongolia, Saladin to drop to unfriendly.

Its at minute 1:13:00
Notice the appearing of orange faces at Mongolia and arabia at the info screen above.

The formal war
Wich you can see in this topic.


Same thing happened to me yesterday. John Curtin declared joint wars on me 3 times with different allies despite having no negative multipliers and something like 30+ points positive. I had even freed 2 city states which fit his agenda.

One of which he ended up taking back himself. Hawks of war my foot :rolleyes:

if you thinx thats funny watch this topic:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/formal-war-bug.616454/#post-14774640

I litterly felt of my chair when this happenned


imo, joint war is a mess in every way. Not only do AI civs declare war against friendly nations, they declare war with zero sense of their own interests. And then, more often than not, one (often both) neglect to send any troops into battle, and then they offer all kinds of stuff in exchange for peace.

From my perspective, this is one of the weakest points in the current game design. And as far as I can tell, it exists almost solely to tick you off at your opponents, so that you are motivated. (In my view, this was one of the weaknesses of Civ 5. Opponents had little personality and it was easy to feel apathetic about them. Seems to me that Civ 6 set out to correct this problem, and joint war is just a tool to accomplish that.)

I once used a mod that removed the joint war option and it resulted in the Ai not declaring war it jut doesn't know how to do it even after denouncing they don't declare a formal war. They just sit there beeing angry. There is clearlly something wrong with the AI and the warmonger penalties
 
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I think the AI approach to warfare on the whole needs some serious work, I've had games where everyone on the planet denounced me and yet did not have a single war declared against me, and the opposite happens as well, everything is one big hug-box and all the sudden my all-game friend declares a pointless war he can't possibly win (though to be honest the AI hardly can in this game even in the best conditions...)

Civ IV had it down right, AI always telegraphed war either through being upset at you, or just because their entire personality was centered around anger and idiocy (don't we all love to hate Monty?). The biggest issue is that there is a perfectly adequate way to track relations to the AI ingame in 6, just that diplomatic standing has, or at least doesn't seem to have, a noticable impact on the likelihood of a war declaration
 
Trust me if you are hoping for diplomacy fixes in the expansion you will be disappointed. This video i showed was from the rise and fall expansion.
Oh, I know. I'm hoping for a post-RF spring patch.
 
I think the AI approach to warfare on the whole needs some serious work, I've had games where everyone on the planet denounced me and yet did not have a single war declared against me, and the opposite happens as well, everything is one big hug-box and all the sudden my all-game friend declares a pointless war he can't possibly win (though to be honest the AI hardly can in this game even in the best conditions...)

Civ IV had it down right, AI always telegraphed war either through being upset at you, or just because their entire personality was centered around anger and idiocy (don't we all love to hate Monty?). The biggest issue is that there is a perfectly adequate way to track relations to the AI ingame in 6, just that diplomatic standing has, or at least doesn't seem to have, a noticable impact on the likelihood of a war declaration

Yes i played with a mod that removed the joint war which resulted in the Ai not declaring war they just sit there even though they denounced me.
Why you might ask? because of THE WARMONGER PENALTIES yes the Ai actually doesn't declare war because it doesn't want a huge penalty. The game actually makes late game war practically non existing except if you declare war.

And yes I’ve seen ai declare war with a joint war and then ask for peace 10 turns later without a SINGLE COMBAT they didn’t send any units.

And I agree civ 4 did it better I would say civ 5 did it even better at least that game had personalities atilla would attack everyone and conquer everyone and some will not attack you. We all loved the alexander AI in civ 5 the crazy guy. It seems in civ 6 every single Ai behaves the same way.

if they don't fix this problem you can have situations like a long term alliance expires and the Ai accept a joint war the moment it ends

So this is how the Ai is programmed : only declare war through a joint war regardless of situation. when you can declare a formal war accept it.
 
(France gets bent if you don't have spies... on turn 20).

She also cares about deligations and embassies.
 
Am i the only one who is annoyed by this behavior? I've had Ai who where my declared friend accept a joint war against me just because i didn't renew my friendship( i was one turn to late)


I think there isn't a single soul on earth that isn't annoyed by this behavior. It feels random, like there's no rule, they just accept the deal. It's by far one of the worse flaws in Civ VI. If a friendly leader will declare war on me, it need to make sense. He is strong, a warmonger, his agenda move him in that direction, he is a known backstabber, anything recognizable, there need to be a reason that isn't just the AI trading war like it's candy.

1) AI agendas don't have coded modifiers on them (France gets bent if you don't have spies... on turn 20).

Catherine's agenda is based on spies AND diplomatic visibility, the gossip system is basically an early spies system so it does make sense that it trigger early. If you got a negative agenda in early game is because you're not doing actions that give diplomatic visibility. Sending delegation is enough to get a positive agenda, which make Catherine one of the easiest leaders to get friendly since you should be sending delegation to everyone on the turn you meet them, assuming you care about diplomacy.
 
As someone mentioned in another thread nobody should take Firaxis and fine tuning the AI/Diplomacy seriously until they start hiring AI programmers and engineers.
 
Forget a civ joint-warring when its friendly. Civ's will joint-war even when it's outright suicidal.
 
As someone mentioned in another thread nobody should take Firaxis and fine tuning the AI/Diplomacy seriously until they start hiring AI programmers and engineers.
You're really over thinking it. It doesn't require "an AI programmer".

It requires a rework of the warmonger penalties and the decision tree that causes the AI to decide when to declare war. We know that the AI is capable of declaring war, they do it often against city states and in joint wars. So the problem is figuring out why they don't do it properly against single target, neighboring civs in the mid-to-late game.

It will require some developer time and some debugging code to watch the AI decisions, but it's worth it.
 
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