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Things to change in Espionage

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by uat2d, Aug 22, 2007.

  1. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    Espionage is awesome! Steal Technolgies!
     
  2. Galatian

    Galatian Warlord

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    I think the "poison water supplies" Mission need to be decreased in power! It is just way to strong in my eyes.
     
  3. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    i think exactly the opposite, if the water supplies were poisoned, it would be terrifying and lots will die; but the "foment unhappiness" is just too strong, how can a single spy have the power to put 337000 people rioting? even if someone said everything a country/government is bad at, we would be able to put so many people rioting, its so unrealistic; 5 in normal speed is enough!
     
  4. Galatian

    Galatian Warlord

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    Na, you have a million people living in the city and the water gets poisend and you are down to like 200.000 people? That is unrealistic, since one spy can't poison ALL the water supplies needed to kill 800.000 poeple. Also consider the time. I mean when I play on marathon and one of my city get's poisoned it will stay that way for like 20 turns. Think about real life: If you know the water is killing you would you still be drinking out of it for 20 years? :suicide:

    See in CtP you had the option to release a deadly virus in the city. I can see how that can kill 800.000 people but poisoned water?

    I think it would be easier if the poison water mission would only decrease a city by one or two inhabitants and cause a high rate of unrest.
     
  5. Littlelisa

    Littlelisa Warlord

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    Assassinate Leader mission needed

    Kill a settled great person

    :backstab:
    Et tu, Brute?
     
  6. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    when the barbarians destroyed the aqueduct of Rome, its population decreased more than 95%; imagine if they instead of destroy it, poison it? they would all drink the poison and its population would be 0; so that's a powerful mission

    of course i agree that the water shouldn't be poisoned for 20 years, but its a powerful EM
     
  7. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

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    Spies need to be able to see other spies and engage them. Spies could then earn experience and promotions (assassin/poisoner/political). Would be a very nice addition to the game. Should be a cap on the number of active spies per civ also (there may be one atm but i dont know)
     
  8. neobean

    neobean Chieftain

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    Quebec
    INteresting thought....
    I think spies should be able to board privateers...
     
  9. Rusty Edge

    Rusty Edge Deity

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    I like it!
     
  10. Dominico

    Dominico Prince

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    I must be playing a different game or something, spies dont have much of an impact on my game really. I also think the poison water mission is pretty minimal. I mean i usually have some health more than what i need (as you should have) so yes you lose some food, then the next turn the unhealthiness is down a bit so you lose less and less. Usually it only slows my growth, rarely kills people. Also If it does kill, then htey are usually back pretty quickly because your city has a big food production now for the smaller city!

    The forment anger mission is a lot more damaging but still not super powered to say the cost of it.

    One question does anyone actually put much money into espianage. I rarely do, only 10% everyso often if i really need to.
     
  11. Portus

    Portus Warlord

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    My 1st reaction was send the spys to future tech but then i understand that cant be, because of corporations (change civics), so bring them back to alphabet but disable the agressive active missions and is like im playing now, ah and made the passive "no active missions" cost 250(why is set -1...).
    The system is promising but right now add loooots of clicks in each turn Civ is turn in a massive click game.
    Right now it was acceptable make the agressive missions enable only in war time and make sense to me, why poison water in peace time...and make them avaiable in later eras accordly, for exemple destroy building with gunpowder...
     
  12. greggbert

    greggbert Warlord

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    Aug 2, 2007
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    The only problem with Poison water is that it is just not balanced right for marathon. On normal, poison water I think works very nicely, and it lasts for just the right amount of time, and on epic maybe slightly too long, but on marathon, it's not balanced and it lasts way too long and wipes out your city.
     
  13. Galatian

    Galatian Warlord

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    Sounds like that is just my problem :)

    Yeah right...So I have like +5 health in my capital with a wonder being build right now and some punk poisons my water (against all odds I might add) and I get 20 :yuck: for a LOT of turns on marathon, which will definitely decrease my population + loose the race for the wonder.
     
  14. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    I previously posted this in a different thread, but I am looking for more input. As I begin, let me emphasize that I think that a revamped espionage system was a good addition to the game and a long time coming, but it is too generic.

    Also, aspects of the current espionage system are tedious. Two quick examples: (1) the mere fact that you have to constantly build the damn things incessantly from start to finish and (2) that you have to redistribute your spies after every attempted mission.

    Further, the spy game is too passive so far as defending against other’s spies is concerned. The current strategy involves a combination of buildings, placing spies as sentries in cities, or scattering spies about as you deem best. In this regard, it isn’t much different than defending your territory using regular military units.

    However, I propose that the current system would be vastly improved by implementing at least some of the changes below:

    1. Espionage units should be divided between Intelligence Agents (“Agents”) and Spies. Agents thwart spies at home while spies wreak havoc in foreign lands.

    2. Spies and agents should have unique abilities based on their unique roles.

    3. More reflective of the combat system, spies and agents should accrue experience points based on their success.

    4. Experience points would provide upgrades to spies and agents.

    · Possible upgrades to spies: vision upgrades, movement upgrades, upgrades that increase the chances of successful missions, or upgrades that lead to the damage caused by a spy mission to last longer, etc.

    · Possible upgrades for agents: visibility, movement, increased chance of detecting spy, increased chance of detaining spy, increased likelihood of obtaining by valuable information through interrogation, increased chance of destroying a spy, better chance of detecting nationality upon detecting a spy, etc.

    5. Just as great general production is boosted by success in battle, points earned from successful espionage missions and successful counter-espionage missions would go toward creating great spies.

    6. Great spies could be attached to an individual spy unit and gain 20 experience points. If you were lucky, you might hold on to a spy with many upgrades that in the end game has become extremely powerful. Like little ‘Bin-Ladens,’ if you will, capable of swaying global politics.

    7. Great spies could also be attached to individual agents and would gain 20 exp. points, making them bona fide intelligence experts so powerful that it would be competent to stop a '911' from taking place within your borders.

    8. Just as a player feels proud of his cavalry unit that has been with him since the days of chariots, which is lead by a great general with 10 upgrades, so to would the player come to feel proud of his elite spies and agents.

    9. Freshly built spies without any upgrades would be invisible new agents. Subsequent upgrades would alter this. As the system goes, a veteran spy will be pretty damn hard to detect, but, on the other hand, a green spy is highly unlikely to get by a veteran agent.

    10. Agents would attack spies just as any other unit attacks, but the consequence would depend on chance, the upgrades of each unit, and possible other factors including buildings, etc.

    11. A successful attack from an agent against a spy could result in detaining the spy at which various options would become available to the player. Maybe the player lets the spy go to gain the good graces of your rival, maybe he interrogates to learn something about their rival, maybe he holds the spy hostage for monetary gain, or maybe he just destroys the spy and incur a diplomatic penalty to try to provoke a war. Choices!

    12. Spies couldn’t attack agents, but they could evade, give false information, or simply disappear. Whether a spy gets detained would depend on chance, the agent’s abilities, the spy’s abilities, buildings, and EP’s.

    13. Whether a spy was detected would be a matter chance, upgrades, buildings, and EP’s for the spy’s owner. Whether an agent detected that spy would be a matter of the same factors. If an agent did detect a spy, the amount of info available would again be a matter of those same factors. If the agent moved to detain the spy, again those factors would be relevant. Upon a successful detention, the choices available to the player would again take these factors into account. It might be that a player simply has a very rudimentary espionage apparatus and can gain nothing from detaining the spy, in which case, the spy is simply destroyed or returned.

    14. Espionage and intelligence buildings would have distinctive purposes. Example: a building to act as barracks for spies or agents to give experience points to new units.

    15. EP’s would continue to be gained by budget spending and buildings.

    16. Espionage and intelligence gathering would be much more closely related to diplomacy and foreign policy.

    17. The numbers of spies and agents would be capped. 18 useful spies for 18 civs on the board should be sufficient, hell, you could use all 18 on one civ if you wanted. 1 good agent per 3 cities should be sufficient.

    18. Emphasis would be on fewer overall spy units, but more options, control, power, and strategy in utilizing the available units.

    19. In this system, successful spies stay embedded. None of this returning to capital nonsense. Also, agents could only leave their own borders via ship or open borders.

    20. One of the best changes in this system is that a player would potentially SEE spies in his territory. A good agent not only has a chance at detecting a spy, but also of recognizing its nationality. Ultimately, what the player could gather by detecting a spy would depend on the agent's upgrades v. the spy's upgrades in addition to buildings and budget. Having agents running around taking notes of exactly what nation is most active in his land and adjusting his foreign policy accordingly would be huge!

    If anyone out there is likeminded and mod-savvy, then what are the chances of getting something like this off of the ground? I have heard that mods for Warlords existed that implemented some of these ideas, so if there is already mods being used that are at all similar to what I am suggesting, then please let me know. I unfortunately am not mod-savvy and school really prevents me from taking the time to learn right now. Maybe over Christmas break. I of course welcome much feedback and ideas.
     
  15. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    ^^
    that should be exactly what Firaxis should do, but i don't think they'll do that...
    better wait for modders!
     
  16. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

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    I like those ideas a lot! :goodjob:
    i think spies & agents should be capped at 5 per civ (combined total)
     
  17. Dominico

    Dominico Prince

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    ahhh well i play on normal speed. It sounds to me like they have worked it out a bit wrong for the other game levels. Just needs changing to suit that slow speed more.
     
  18. sagji

    sagji Chieftain

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    Additional thoughts.

    Espionage points should decay over time - say 5% lost each turn. Costs would need to be rescaled.


    Double agents.

    If a spy is caught there is a chance of it being turned.
    effects:
    visable to the second nation.
    provides sightline to second nation.
    mission never results in capture by second nation.
    second nation can allways capture it if in the second nation (i.e. delete it)
    another turn by any nation results in destruction.
    the second nation gains 1 EP per turn on the owner.

    A spy has a cnance of turning an agent.
    effects:
    visable to the second nation.
    provides sightline to second nation.
    reduced ability to detect spys of the second nation.
    the second nation gains 1 EP per turn on the owner.
    another turn by any nation results in destruction.

    Note: the second nation is the nation that turns the spy/agent.
     

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