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Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Roxlimn, Nov 9, 2014.

  1. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Eh. All the strategy games release like that. Even Pandora games need some love. I used to mind it a lot more, but this is the 5th mainline Civ game and BE is I don't know how many variations. I liked the Call to Power variants as well. There's always these little things, so I've come to expect them.

    Frankly, Colonization and SMAC released with worse balance issues.
     
  2. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    There are a lot of problems with Civ BE as it stands now but I agree with you that there is excessive hate going on around.

    However, why do you put it as if all or most of the complains come from people that expected it to be like Alpha Centauri? I don't get that impression.
     
  3. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    No. Complaints that say it could be better are good. Those exist and those are great! Complaints that say that it could be better if it were just remade to literally be SMAC OR CIV 5 are bad.

    Hate is a very destructive thing that destroys the person who harbors it for as long as they carry it. If we're going to have that going around, I'd like to think that it's for some worthwhile, creative purpose.
     
  4. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    TR as a mechanic is directly translated from BNW down to the units and interface, not very strange it will be compared.

    They effectively removed the happiness threshold and national wonder incentive while making trade routes work both ways and pr city. I understand that they wanted away from 4-5 optimal cities. However, there's a slight difference to cutting your hair and chopping your head off.
     
  5. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    The boldest strokes often are first unwieldy and unattractive; the first inventions often seem needlessly large and seemingly pointless.
     
  6. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    I was too late to edit post #2 QQ

    I would like to apologise to the OP because I responded based on the title making me think it was another 'No one should buy this game because I say so' thread.

    I didn't realise at that point he was just saying that its not a sequel to SMAC.
     
  7. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    'Sokay. :) It's all good.

    I think we can all see by now that CivBE is not just SMAC2 and it's not just CiV in space. It's shooting for a pretty distinctive play experience and style that's kind of rough around the edges at the moment. Fine-tuning and sculpting the edges is what I've always known CivFanatics to do. I don't want that to be drowned out in the calls for it to be more like CiV.
     
  8. Joch

    Joch Warlord

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    I for one am enjoying the game. Yes, it may need tweaking, but as you spend more time on it and ramp up the difficulty level, you realize it is quite complex and has many layers.
     
  9. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Well actually I do think it is just CiV in space though.

    However one thing I like a lot more is how much more fast paced the building is. In the last two Civ games, you could literally spend 500 years of game time trying to make just one building. Buiding up your cities was slow, lame, boring and sapped a lot of what I enjoyed out of Civ 2 and SMAC.

    Civ BE has a much more rapid building approach, well at least thanks to the current trade routes, and I don't see why this should change (building things quickly that is, not the trade routes).

    It would be pretty sucky if in such a futuristic game, we still had to wait an eternity no construct single buildings in cities.
     
  10. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    too many to list but ones that change aliens, AI, the tech tree and interface mainly.
     
  11. Ari Rahikkala

    Ari Rahikkala Chieftain

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    Let me repeat something that OP saidshould have said, a bit more forcefully: Please go play Planetfall. I'm serious about this. Planetfall is the lost sequel that you thought SMAC never had.

    Let me tell you about some of the things I've done in this game. I have, as Deirdre, wreaked havoc across Planet with my increasingly icky and slimy mindworm armies, infesting the bodies of my enemies to raise more soldiers, all in order to make room for a new age of enlightenment - of continent-spanning forests of native and Earth life living together, dotted with communes of humans living off the land.

    I have, as Morgan, traded the products of my economy with the world (and been demanded those products as tribute by Santiago), reaping the rewards of vast amounts of energy. I have exploited the land harder than anyone else can exploit it, even knowing what kind of trouble the ecological damage I'm causing puts me in at the edges of my lands where I haven't yet been able to clear away Planetmind's influence.

    I have, as Yang, built my capital as a massive and endlessly expanding underground dystopia whose hordes of drones don't even have old age and death to look forward to, that having been taken away from them by Hiverian medicine. Even the police forces keeping my people in check were enormous - and that's not counting those who failed nerve stapler training and were sent to the front line...

    And that's just the beginning. You get my point, I hope. Planetfall takes SMAC's themes and goes to some audacious places with them. And it does that without having the tedium of things like crawlers or trade routers. It's not perfect - the extremely powerful Stockpile Energy option breaks Civ4's limits on REXing (the game tries to limit REXing by having most factions start out close to each other, but it doesn't always work), the diplomacy texts are uninspiring, the civilopedia is a bit patchy, etc.. But damnit, I hate how little attention it got, because it deserves more.
     
  12. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    I didn't realize it until now that the "Crawler" wonder of Civ BE is almost certainly a nod to the crawler exploit to instantly build wonders in SMAC.
     
  13. Arabes

    Arabes Chieftain

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    I wasn't expecting this game to be SMAC 2 but I also wasn't expecting the game to be dull and trite, with a terrible UI and poorly explained mechanics.

    The idea that it is ok to fix a full priced 50 yoyo game with paid for DLC is not one that I find acceptable.
     
  14. de_baser

    de_baser Warlord

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    Thing is, it's a different game. It's a survival/exploration/partial role playing game built on CIV which i believe provides better immersion than CIV V does.

    What the game does is actively counteract the linear tactics and play that high-level CIV V play usually demands. You can always tell when the AI completes the GL or Itza or Petra - that is much harder here.

    It's also based on the exploration/new start thing here, where we grow our identities as time goes on in the new world. Fine idea.

    The pity in all of it is the implementation of course. The balance issues make it so that the game simply fails to avoid the predictability/linearity of every game. There are very few games i've played in CIV V which have not started with Trad, 4 cities and getting NC before turn 80. And here's the problem: The balance issue will make it so nobody will ever diverge from choosing +3culture OERs or building a single alien fence for the TR quest. The only factors motivating you to proper situational play will be the landscape, which frankly, once you get used to it, is less exciting than CIV V's landscape.
     
  15. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    I don't see why you can't just play differently to get a different experience. It's not like you're gonna lose or anything.
     
  16. de_baser

    de_baser Warlord

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    Haha! Well, the AI is an obvious direction to point the beetching stick in, but i'm disappointed that it is virtually impossible to lose.

    The most important problem lies in this though. CIV is supposed to offer infinite challenges and ways to play, that's the reason for replaying it. The story your civ goes through in BE is largely the same quest, and once you get familiar with all three affinities and the alien world, a lot of the enjoyment goes away with the curiosity.

    Now, the curiosity will naturally not stay there forever. And it's a lovely thing to have, and to nurture, like they've obviously gone for with civBE. But the factors that make you wanna stay, replay, figure out the optimal strategy and get under the games' skin for real, simply are not there.

    And it's not easy for me to dictate what those factors should be, but surely a thoroughly balanced game and an active/competent AI are cornerstones somewhere in there.
     
  17. m15a

    m15a Emperor

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    Several people have said that. But, no, I don't think it's the majority.

    There are also a lot of idea posts that spend a couple paragraphs explaining an idea and then mention "like they did in SMAC." :) So, I can see how people can think that's just what people want. But, still, it's just certain people or certain specific ideas.

    And I think that doesn't necessarily reflect unwillingness to change, but just the fact that it's much easier to spot an issue than to come up with a solution that is actually new.

    I agree with the OP that people should see that the game is trying to be different - I really think the devs did try to make the game different to match the story and just for variety. It's just that since it's not that good, people only see how the differences are worse than what's in other games.
     
  18. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    If they are, then we're obviously in the wrong forum with the wrong series. Civ games have never been strong on balance and competent AI. Ever seen the QQ threads on Financial Civs in Civ IV?

    I've been around a long time, and I review all the old threads when new stuff comes around. Same QQ, same complaints. Total rose-tinted glasses.

    As far as I can tell, CivBE is actually ahead of the curve as far as balance, detail, and playability are concerned. Civ V AI released with the AI moving its ranged units right up to your melee units for dinner. Civ IV AI released not knowing the different between a mine and a farm. Don't even get me started on Civ 3. Or Warlords. Or Call to Power.

    And yes, SMAC. Always a mess, never really balanced. Kind of sucky in terms of game design (can point out multiple reasons why). SMAC has a lot of strength, but none of them include balance and strong AI.
     
  19. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    I do agree that AI behaviour and difficulty level is not the same, and I don't think the AI is any worse in BE than in CiV BNW. However I do think I speak for quite a fee people who are very disappointed they could easily beat Apollo on the first try. If a lack of bonuses are the reason, please add more bonuses.

    Also a lot of people, myself included, think it sucks that what feels like the only thing needed to do this is getting the TRs up and running and spamming cities. I know you disagree with this, but you have to realize it's the single biggest complaint with the game right now. And it's ultimately down to a question of taste, not being "right" or "wrong".
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    No Civ game is hard. If you master the key mechanic, it's all sugar from there. This has always been true. It's just a lot more upfront this time, and we have the Internet to tell us what works and what does not.

    Basically, if you want to play Civ as a calculation game for optimization, you're going to be disappointed every time. Especially at the higher diffs, the bonuses the AI gets distorts the gameplay so much it no longer resembles anything the theme is supposed to represent. We're talking CiV strategic resource whoring here.

    I find it much more enjoyable to just sit back, roleplay, and try a lot of stuff. You'll see this approach a lot during the latter end of Civ IV and many threads do the same for Civ V, intentionally choosing very forgiving settings (King or Emperor) in order to have the freedom to kick around the systems.

    The reason theme and narrative is so important in Civ is because it's that kind of a game. It's less a calculation puzzle than it is an emergent narrative featuring rulership of a faction. In CivBE's case, it's supposed to evoke Star Trek and Star Wars and other scifi stuff.

    In short, you don't play to win. You're always going to win. You play to play. That's why the ending is like that. At that point, it doesn't matter. Heck, you don't even have to "finish" every game. Once you got your colony looking and feeling like you want with the story you wanted to express, quit out and start anew.

    The diff setting is largely so that you actually have dancers who look the part. You can't have an epic war with Battlesuits on the enemy if the enemy never shows up. On Apollo, they will show up. They'll still fold over and die like they should, but they'll show up.
     

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