This is pitiful but...tips for winning on chieftan

Hunter Noventa

Overlord
Joined
Sep 21, 2003
Messages
310
Location
New York
Yeah, I'm pathetic, but I want to be able to win consistently on Chieftan before I move up to Warlord. Problem is, the only way I've been able to win is by score. I never have time to conquer/dominate the world in time, I managed one Space Race and i've never bothered trying for cutural or diplomatic.

If someone could take a look at one of my 'average' games and give me some sugestions that would be awesome.

This is updated PTW btw, I don't have money for Conquests at the moment.

The year is 1957, and I've just started gearing up to wipe out the Celts.
 
I don't think the situation is good, but I wouldn't call it pitiful, especially with all that desert you started with. I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking at it, but a few things that I did notice with a quick glance:

1) You have too many opponents left.
2) If you are planning on building up to take on the Celts, you have a ways to go, as you are light on military.
3) You have 8532 gold, yet you have 3 cities producing wealth, when they could be producing something better.
4) You have lots of excess ivory and silks, and the Iroquois have dyes & incense for trade, and France has wines for trade. You have 9 of your citizens as entertainers, when you could easily make them happy by trading for some more luxuries, or spending some of your excess gold on entertainment.
5) There is room for 2 or 3 more cities on each island. You have some wasted space.
6) Workers - You don't have enough for the amount of space they have to work. There is not much left to do, and you may have had more earlier, but it looks like they are just finishing up railroading, and you are almost into the next era. If that is not the case, and you had more earlier - nevermind, but I would recommend at least one worker per town.

Probably, the main reason that you don't have time to get any other type of victory is the level. On chieftan, the AI civs are so disadvantaged by the rules, that they can't do much research. Therefore, the tech pace is very slow. I would advise trying Monarch. Chieftan is not really the game, and you will just pick up bad habits from playing against helpless AI civs.
 
I just meant it was pitiful that I'm still on Chieftan. :p

I have tried a few Warlord games, and gotten royally whomped before i could get to the industrial age. Half my problem is i avoid trading anything like the plague, and otehr half being i always worry about running out of money and therefore don't produce more units than are defensivly necessary.

Normally I would have taken out at least one or two opponents by this time, but it toook quite a while to find them, and at that point i wanted to make sure there were no culture holes ony m second island and didn't really build up any forces to try and eliminate them. If I start with someone on the same island, I'll kick them off the planet ASAP.

BTW, this is a random everything map, any suggestions for map type to truly learn the game?
 
Get off Chieftain immediately. I haven't had a chance to look at the save, but I'm guessing you've got the Pyramids and Great Library (the two biggest crutch wonders in the ancient age, if not the whole game). I'm also guessing you got a tech lead early and are loathe to let the AI catch up with you, or help them in any way. It's more of a function of the level than you as a player.

Move up to Warlord, at least, and make it a point to force yourself to do things differently. I'd actually recommend moving up to Regent, as that's the first level where trade starts to become necessary. As soon as you get a decent picture of your surroundings (first 10-20 turns, or so), sit back, take a look at it and decide what kind of grand strategy you want to pursue. Do you want to try and build up peacefully in whatever land you can get to before your neighbors? Do you want to roam the countryside killing everybody you meet? Btw, this is an activity that should be revisited as often as possible. Do you have some ground to make up for your start? If so, do you want to make up for it by accelerating your land grab, or by forgoing improvements long enough to get some horses and swords and go take somebody else's budding empire?

Most importantly: forget that the Pyramids and GL exist. Teach yourself to prioritize granaries properly, by which I don't mean teach yourself to build them everywhere quick. Pick the cities where you're going to be building settlers and workers. Those will need granaries. Do the same with barracks. That one shield town isn't going to be any good for unit production anytime soon, so don't put a barracks in it, unless it's a border town you think you'll be needing to heal in. Learn how to keep up and pull ahead in tech via research, trade and exploration.

Don't neglect the luxury slider, especially in the ancient age. Try a game where your ancient age military is 80% or more offensive units (i.e. 4 horses/swords for every spear). That was the biggest obstacle I had to overcome in developing my warmongering skills. On Warlord, I felt like I needed two defenders in every city, in case trouble happened. Then I realized trouble doesn't happen right in my city, and if I take the fight to my enemy, trouble will rarely see my borders. Now my forces tend to be 90% or better offensive units up until the industrial age. Then it drops to about 75%. Keep enough defensive units to be able to react to barbs and protect your borders, but no more. I also used to try to build up until I got tanks or MA (cavalry against spears?!? No way, there's a 25% chance of losing that battle!), then build a crapload of them and roll over all my opponents. The problem was by then, all my opponents had time to build good empires, and I never made the connection that the earlier you hit, the less time they've had to make something of their cities. If you're going to pursue a military course, start fighting early. If you're anything like I was at that stageTry an archer rush if your neighbor is close enough, or a horse or sword rush if they're a little farther away. You'll be amazed at the effects it can have if successful. ;)
 
The best place to really learn the game is in the GOTM (game of the month) forum. Play the next GOTM starting May 1st.

They have an early game focus (QSC) where you track your early game results as compared to others playing the same map and the same level. When you look at their results, you'll be amazed someone can have that many cities and units that early in the game! The big plus is you can then look at the top players time lines listing every move and every action to see where you are missing the boat.

A few months playing the GOTM and reading the threads from others playing the same map you are will really open your eyes. You'll be winning 90% of the time on Monarch/Regent by then!
 
Agree with much of what's been posted here - Chieftain level is for learning the mechanics of the game. After a while, many find warlord/regent to actually be a little easier than Chieftain... but if you can win at Chieftan - any kind of win - it's time to move up.

As for map types, it depends... you should play them all, at least occasionally. Continents is probably good for general play. If you like a good slugfest (or if you need to work on your warmongering) Pangea maps lend themselves to conflict early and often. I struggled mightily in the last GOTM because I don't play Archipelago maps often, and my weaknesses were exposed.

Some general advice:

First: read the articles in the War Academy on this site. Those are there because they represent some of the best advice that has been distilled from these forums.

Next: peruse the forums, but not just the strategy and tips forums. Look through the Succession Games. There's a Training Day Game that I joined a while back that has given me a lot of good pointers.

Another: Keep asking questions. The people on these forums are generally quite helpful. You might find you get better advice if you narrow the scope of your questions. Rather than "How do I win at level X?" Ask questions about specific aspects or phases of the game. Are you having trouble keeping up with Expansion? Research? Military? (Research is one of those things that changes dramatically as you go up to higher levels...)

One thing that you posted did stand out: Trading. Trading is an integral part of CivIII. Those who can trade effectively can either avoid or instigate wars. If you are trading luxuries with another civ, they are somewhat less likely to go to war with you... when you get to Monarch level, it's simply not possible to keep up in the tech race without trading for techs. At levels lower than monarch it's possible to out-research the AI.

Trade and Diplomacy are areas that have a lot of finer points that aren't necessarily covered by the manuals, but they have a huge impact on the game. If you'd like to discuss trade a little more, I'll keep an eye on this thread for more questions.

One huge mistake a lot of new players make is automating workers. Don't do it. You're basically giving control of your single most important unit to the computer. I can't tell from the thread if this describes you or not... but effective worker management is usually the first step toward getting better.

I want to reiterate some thing Solomwi said: "Most importantly: forget that the Pyramids and GL exist." Find, and read, Ision's article on wonder addiction. It is arguably one of the most profound and powerful articles in the war academy.
 
And now for a review on the game you've given us.

Here are the changes I made right from the get-go.
Your money doesn't do you any good unless you spend it. Any items that can benefit you right away get bought as soon as you have any shields put into them.
I've queued a few items in some of your towns to show what should probably be built there next, I've moved your Intelligence Agency to a town that can build it the soonest, and I've started the town farthest from your capitol on building the Forbidden palace, although I would prefer to build it more toward the center of the map.

The next task is to try to get a couple Settlers to build on the island to the southwest (with the Ottomans on it) in the best places you can find, Hoping for some cultural conversions, later on, but mostly to get some footholds in enemy territory for leapfrog style building into enemy territory without causing any wars.

Your destroyer has been sent on an exploratory mission to find more land for future cities. And your transports are being moved to the closest point to the island so that your settlers can get to the available spaces ASAP.

Try to keep at least 1000 gold in your treasury to maximize the effect of your Stock Exchange.

Move the science slider every turn to get the fastest reasearch with out going into a Net Loss, then slide it down until you get the fastest research with the least cost.
You had your slider at 80% for Radio in 3 turns and a Net Gain of 67 gold. I moved it to 60% and 10% to luxuries for Radio in 3 turns, a Net Gain of 181 gold, and more citizens producing in your cities.

Molde is going to finish its factory, rush the hospital in two turns, and build Hoover Dam, which will increase production in all your cities with factories to 200% over their production without factories, nearly doubling your overall production rate.

Alesund is going to rush factory, rush granary in two turns, rush a settler in two more turns, sending it on the transport to the nearest free space to build a city with the infantry that are standing next to the transports sent along as protection and the extra units will be sent to secure the future city sites for the next few settlers.

I've sent the guerilla to Copenhagen and disbanded it so that the factory could be rushed at half the cost, and calvalry was sent from Bodo to Hareid for the same purpose.

This takes your gold down to 820, but should be made up fairly quickly, even after rushing the priority items listed above.

Next, I renegotiate peace with the Celts for MPP, 1 Gold (that's all they got), and World Map.
Next time they have money I'll negotiate RoP, keeping them as poor as possible.

Zulus: 6 GPT, 10 gold, World Map for Peace; 3 GPT, 5 gold for RoP; 3 GPT, 5 gold for MPP; and 23 GPT, 95 gold for Coal, Ivory, and Silks (Sold separately for separate renegotiation.
Zulu are now gracious toward us

Running through the rest, accepting only offers that give money to Solaris, I've taken Solaris from 820 gold and 181 GPT to 1020 gold and 341 GPT. I've also picked up World Maps from each nation.

I adjust the Science to 90% to get radio in 2 turns. Net Gain goes to 12 GPT.

This brings us to the end of the turn. I would have saved, but Wait at the End of Turn was toggled off.
I toggled the Wait at the End of Turn, Always Renogotiate Deals, Show Civil disorder Pop-Up, and Ask for Build Orders after Unit Construction. This allows for End of the Turn adjustments, reminds you to renegotiate deals (although you have to monitor deals for peace or you end up giving it away for free) and allows you to make changes to production and city happiness as it happens, instead of hunting around for cities that need adjusting.
Here is the save for the beginning of the next turn.

I moved the Science slider to 80%, bringing the Net Gain to 82 GPT and still retaining Radio in 1 turn.

Aarhus, Alesund, Karasjok, and Odense, start on granary.
All cities are back on City Governer, with Manage citizen moods on, Never build Wonders, Never build Small Wonders, and Wealth turned off for all cities and set as default setting for new cities.
Oslo, Stavanger, and Stockholm are building factory.
Reykjavik is building a couple transports for transporting units between continents; Trondheim, Copenhagen, and Birka are building units for disbanding in other cities that are building city improvements; Hareid is starting a worker-settler-tank loop for starting new cities: and the other cities are following the original plan.

Here is the game and its settings:

The general plan for the next several turns is to irrigate the mined grasslands, build a few cities, send units to stake-out future city sites, slap cities into squares that cultural expansion makes available so as to push into rival territory, and to slap cities into the unused squares when the other options aren't available for territory pushing.
I'll also buy any workers I can spare gold for while renewing peace when I can and renegotiating any deals that come up for renegotiation, saving negotiations on resources for last.

Reminder: You have to renegotiate for peace when there are no turns left. If you wait for them to remind you, you will have to grant peace for free or go to war.

Also note: It is extremely wastful to fortify workers. I hate to think how much terrrain improvement was thrown away before I started your saved game. I ended up haveing to hunt down all the workers and putting them to work.

I'll post another save in 1970 or '80, unless you want one sooner.
 
Looking at the save, your terrain management is ok. I'd mine a bit more in cities with surplus food, and chop down those forests.

City Placement wise - ok, this has to be one of the most terrible starting spots. You could have built much more tightly though (especially in the desert - ICS build. Infinite City Sprawl). I would have gone for an agressive war sometime mid-game to get some better land (The Iroquois and French come to mind, and maybe the Celts). There's also good places near your capital (although more coast/sea than land) that you could have settled on.

Tech Pace - Looks ok. Would have worried less about optional techs (unless you traded for them.). Right now, it looks like your best bet is Fission.

Trading & Diplomacy - You aren't trading. (It's also utterly evident by your knowledge of the world map...) All of the AIs are trading. You need to trade to advance in tech, and even slow down the tech pace by having civs go to war against each other.

City Management - You have a few cities on wealth. This is a no-no. Have them build units, and especially factories!!! You *REALLY* need factories once infantry and tanks come around (infact, before they come online). You also focused a bit too much on the early wonders it seems (unless you were trying for a 20K city). Your most productive city is Bergen. I suggest switching it to a factory, disband a weak unit (or that nearby guerilla), and rush the factory, then do the same for a coal plant. After that, do a pre-build (i.e., palace) for the UN. Be sure that you don't disband, or chop any forests nearby while the prebuild is being built. If you do, you can't switch). You're also using the governor to manage your cities. This is also a no-no. In just 2 turns, I got Bergen up to 66spt (64 after corruption).

Workers - you need FAR MORE than 9 workers. You should have once per city, or twice as many workers as cities. Don't fortify them, make them do something. I see a lot more terrain that can be worked. There's even empty spots that can be settled. (the spot 1 south of that lake to the SW of your capital comes to mind). Another spot is that irragated grassland (that no city is using, or can use) that's 4 tiles SE of Bodo. Make that your Forbidden Palace. (It's better than nothing...)

Forbidden Palace Placement - Rigth now, you have none, and that's bad. Had you invaded the Iroquois, you could have used one of their cities (probably Salamanca).


Here's my take on how winnable your save is -

As it stands now, if you wait until 2050AD, you can win via a histographic victory. From a tech standpoint, yes, you can still win this game once you hit Fission and build the UN. (You need a factory, coal plant, and a good pre-build). Once you get the UN (the world seems peaceful enough...), sign MPPs. Or, force an AI to declare war on you, and sign alliances against that civ.

Be a little more agressive, and don't do things like put cities on wealth, do use factories, and I think you can play just fine on warlord and regent.


EDIT: ok, there's no UN... It doesn't look like you'll be able to conquer everyone before 2050AD. Also, you can build faster by building factories, and coal plants. You also need to turn "wait at the end of the turn" on so that you can catch any needed stuff when your workers/units are finished moving.
 
Wow, thanks for all the advice. A couple days ago I started a Warlord game that's going OK. I'm in the lead score-wsie, and I've gotten into a knock-down drag out fight with the Iroquois, who are a little smaller than me, but on nearly equal tech footing. (We both have battleships, but they only have infantry to my mech inf and modarn armor)

Everyone else is pretty much neutral towards me, I eliminated the Romans and the Greeks who sprouted next to me. Persia, on the next island over, tried to make war with me and met with little success, mostly due to the distance and lack of good boats.

I'm about to land my main force of 3 Modern Armor armies, 1 calvalry army, accompanied by several modern armors and mech infantries off the coast of Slamanca, which I would hope i've weakened by bombing every improvement around it. They had three cities on an island right off their coast that I captured with little trouble.

Taking some of the advice here, just about every city is making something useful. I've been airlifting more MAs over in preparation for the big assault.

Any suggestions for keeping their capital from culture flipping once i take it? Other than taking out the cities around which I plan on anyway?
 
Originally posted by Hunter Noventa
Any suggestions for keeping their capital from culture flipping once i take it? Other than taking out the cities around which I plan on anyway?
Bombard it down to size 1 before taking it. Anyone "born" there after that will be one of your citizens...
 
This is what I did up to 1970. Don't know if it's of much use, but someone might get something out of it.

1958 - Bodo switched from Factory (14 turns) to Forbidden Palace (12 turns).
This will take 21 turns instead of 23 turns and Forbidden Palace will increase gold, science, luxuries for 9 of those turns.
Bergen switched from Intelligence Agency/Factory to Factory/Intelligence Agency.
This will allow both to be finished in 14 turns instead of 20 turns, giving us 396 extra shields to play with for those extra 6 turns.
Trondheim is queued up for a Settler-Tank, as new city opportunities have shown up to the northeast, near Centralia, and Infantry is switched to Tank to better utilize deforestation in the city borders.
Workers begin replacing mines with irrigation and road to lumber between Trondheim and Hareid.
Workers cut lumber northeast of Alesund.
Three Infantry dropped off north of Kafa; Tank, Guerilla, and Infantry dropped off south of Kafa to stakeout future city sites.

1960 - Alesund rushes Granary, Bergen rushes Factory.
RoP sold to Egypt for their entire Treasury (7 Gold).
Science is pushed to 80%, changing Flight from 6 to 5 turns and putting Net Gain @ 64 GPT.

1961 - Infantry disbanded at Odense to finish Granary.
Two desert tiles mined near Trondheim to finish Settler in one turn.
Science dropped back to 70%, retaining 4 turns to Flight, and putting Net Gain @ 72 GPT.

1962 - Trondheim switches to Settler to send to Centralia area; irrigate on Reykjavik Silks and on Bergen Horses.

1963 - Karasjok starts Colusseum; Infantry disbanded at Reykjavik to finish Transport; Molde Ruses Hospital to start Hoover Dam 1 turn sooner - 33% more production 1 turn sooner.

1964 - Molde starts Hoover Dam - 30 turns to go; Tromso founded west of Umtata (the border-push has started) - Infanty disbanded, Temple Rushed - Granary, Aqueduct slapped into queue; Infantry sent toward Tromso to help build city improvements; Denarr born (woe to the world); Hareid switches to Privateer (done in '65) to deal with those pesky rival ships; Destroyer starts exploring the north pole.
Science dropped to 60% - Flight in 1 turn, Net Gain @ 169 GPT.

1965 - Vadso built between Lisht and Tugela - Infantry disbanded, Temple Rushed; Farsund and Risor built near Centralia.
Science moved to 70% - Computers in 9 turns, Net Gain 56 GPT.

1966 - Temple Rushed in Farsund.

1967 - Temple Rushed in Risor.

1969 - Privateer claims its first victim.

1970 - Odense finishes Hospital, starts Commercial Dock, redistributes its labor force for more food; Bodo completes Forbidden Palace, starts on Factory.
Science moved to 60% - Computers in 3 turns, Net Gain 183 GPT.

End of 1970…
I'm really curious to see how others have done with this game…this is the first time I've taken over from this far into someone else's game.
 
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