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This is Where it Always Starts Downhill

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by LowEndUser, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    Any help appreciated. Japan on a Large Map. Regent Level Game. 1130 AD.

    Already had a Golden Age when Rome attacked me. Took some of there cities, made Peace.

    I started a war with France when she was about to drop a city next to my Capital. Made Peace now. I`m in Republic and even with the AI players Tech levels however I can`t safely disband any more units IMO, and I`m losing gold even at 10% research.

    Even with No Wars my capital city is going into disorder on and off, which is why I hate the Republic. My research is very slow.

    I own a large land area, however this is where I usually start to fall behind in these Regent Level Games.

    Any thoughts on how to pull this out ?
     

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  2. btfx

    btfx Prince

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    A screenshot of the military screen would help more than the map you posted.
     
  3. btfx

    btfx Prince

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    Usually when I switch to Republic, I have mostly towns, and with one defender in each town, I have to pay a hefty load for my workers/attackers.

    You have lots of cities, I don't know what's wrong.
     
  4. civverguy

    civverguy Emperor

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    You don't need a defender in every city.
     
  5. btfx

    btfx Prince

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    When the barbs get restless, sometimes you do. Also to keep other civs at bay, leaving border and cpitol cities undefended pisses them off.
     
  6. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    Here is the Army Screen. I realize thats a lot of units, however all the AI`s have MI and it takes at least 4-8 turns to build MI or longbows if I`m attacked and 3-5 turns to get them there.

    In my experience if you don`t garrision all the border cities as well as those within 5 tiles of the border the AI will attack you for that reason alone at this level.

    Here is a save game if anyones interested.
     

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  7. Kool Keith

    Kool Keith Warlord

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    Here are my humble thoughts, LEU. Aside from civverguy's comments that you don't need a defender in every city, two things jumped out at me:

    1. It is 1130 AD and you don't even have half of your map explored. You need to make a serious effort to meet all of your opponents in the ancient age. This creates many opportunities for trade, which is essential. Build suicide curraghs and EXPLORE. You won't regret it.

    2. It is 1130 AD and you are still researching gunpowder.

    You are having problems not so much because of anything that is falling apart at this stage of the game, but rather because of your weaknesses in the ancient age.

    Work on your REX skills and learn how to build population in a hurry. There is plenty of material in the War Academy on the main page. The faster you expand, the faster you can research, and the faster you can outmatch your opponents.

    For this game, my strategy would be to take all of that excess military and go stomp on Japan, ASAP. This will result in you grabbing some extra land, as well as reduce your unit costs, since you will both gain cities and suffer losses.

    And build some galleys and try to meet some other civs.
     
  8. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Kieth, stomp on Japan?? I believe he is Japan.
     
  9. Kool Keith

    Kool Keith Warlord

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    Sorry, I meant India.
     
  10. Kool Keith

    Kool Keith Warlord

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    Okay, you have WAY too much military. There is no way you can sustain an empire with the unit support costs you are burdening yourself with.

    It is not important to have units guarding all of your border cities. I will grant you that it sucks to have as much border territory as you do, but you need to manage it better. Simply be prepared to counter any attacks that come your way, with a few fast units. If they declare war on you, don't defend. ATTACK their attackers. It slants the odds in your favor.

    But even more important, don't be so passive. You have enough military to cripple your neighbors. You should only rarely build defensive units. Build offense and go crush your neighbors. That will take care of those border issues.

    You have triple the military you need. Go use it. Right now.
     
  11. Norton II

    Norton II Emperor

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    I see a few problems here:
    1. Lots of undeveloped land, probably because you didn't build enough workers in the early game. Your core should be fully improved by now, but it's not even close.
    2. As Kool Keith mentioned, your military is way too large: specifically, it has too many defenders. I'd disband all defensive units in cities away from the border along with all spearmen. Then, I'd move all my attackers to the border. You might consider going to war against one of your neighbors soon. On that note, keep in mind that Rome has no iron, and that you're strong compared to them and India.
    3. You'd have done better to use tighter city spacing in your core. I usually go with CxxC in my core and semi-core and CxC in corrupt lands which will be used as science farms. More cities=more production, more commerce, and more unit support. Also, cities can't grow past size 12 without hospitals, which aren't available until you're halfway up the tech tree. Thus, wide city spacing wastes a lot of tiles in the early game, and it ends up taking longer to get halfway up the tech tree than it would with tight spacing.

    As for what to do now, I think development might help you more than war. Strange coming from a warmonger such as myself, but your empire is badly underdeveloped. Some things that might help:
    1. more workers--lots more
    2. more cities--fill in a few spaces near Kyoto (but not too near)
    3. markets, aqueducts, and libraries--sell your temples
    4. The Maya will trade you their incense for silks and 2 gpt. Take that deal.

    I see you've already had your GA from the SoZ--otherwise, I'd recommend going for chivalry. As it stands, however, the MT route is the best.

    I'm going to play from your save to see what I can do with it; I can post the results later if you like.

    Edit: You should also build the Forbidden Palace. Osaka's a good place for it.
    Edit #2: It also appears that you've automated some of your workers. Never do that.
     
  12. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    No doubt your military support cost is way too high - 158 GPT in the Middle Ages - wow! Might as well attack someone with all those units. You've got more than enough to attack without training reinforcements. Taking cities will gain you more support, and losing units will reduce costs, so a war is win-win. Beyond that...

    1. Build courthouses everywhere you don't have one. You can't afford to be losing commerce to corruption with this economic situation.

    2. Build markets. You obviously need more revenue.

    3. Train more workers and improve tiles.

    4. I'd suggest researching Chivalry instead of Gunpowder. Samurai can fill both your offensive and defensive roles, and are strong enough you won't need nearly as many of them as Medieval Infantry and Pikemen. Most importantly, if you can do with 60 Samurai what you've been doing with 112 units, you'll be saving tons of gold.

    Really, with an army of that size, you would have been better off with Monarchy as the government. That would've reduced unit support to about 60 GPT from 160 GPT. Despotism also would be a better choice than Republic, due to its far lower unit support, I'd guess somewhere around 20 GPT. Just because it has a commerce bonus doesn't mean Republic is better. Economically, Despotism might just be the best government for you in this situation - it certainly isn't Republic.
     
  13. btfx

    btfx Prince

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    Declare war. no more than 2 offensive units for each defensive units, if you strive for that (by bashing them against neighbors), you will pay less.
     
  14. retro V

    retro V Prince

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    The savefile had a lot of automation. You would do better to manage everything yourself. Here's what I did before ending the turn:

    Stripped all the citizens in every city, turned off governors, then cherrypicked the optimum worked tiles in the least corrupt cities first, starting from the capital obviously. Also in each city I changed some of the production assignments so there were no more unit constructions or barracks, you don't even need any cities set to wealth just yet, especially not in the core cities where you're getting 10+ shields per turn, that's just nuts. Wealth should be reserved for 1 spt towns with total corruption, if you can get 2 spt in these places then you can usually use these for worker pumps. Fresh workers every 5 turns per pump is a lot of workers, if you can't afford to run them all then you can still put them to good use joining them to core cities which will then grow a lot faster, especially where there are no granaries and it can take 20 turns to grow at size 7+.

    Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Yokohoma -> marketplaces.
    These were large cities where you were getting most of your income from. Markets will increase this by a lot more. Not to mention an extra happyface as you have 3 luzury resources. Any extra luxes you can get in the future will make markets even more useful.

    Suo, Kagoshima, Izumo -> aqueducts.
    These were pretty good towns too, but stuck at size 6 surrounded by good good food tiles. 3 cities increases unit support by 6, saving you 12 gpt. I would have gone for more ducts in your empire but I didn't have to because you are quite lucky and have lots of rivers which you have put to good use.

    Hakodate, Edo, Satsuma, Echiyo, Shimoseki, Omi, Ise, Izumi -> worker.
    Worker factories as previously mentioned.

    Nagasaki, Sapporo, Toyoma, Lugdunum, Echizen, Nara, Fukushima -> settler.
    Useless towns, some with lots of growth potential, some stuck at size 3, all wasting shields though. A town with 6 worked tiles but only getting 1 spt is not as good as 4 towns with only 2 (or whatever) worked tiles but getting 1 spt in each. These settlers are gonna cram in as many towns as you can among the really corrupt ones. These can all get set to wealth later when you run out of room.

    Bayonne -> trebuchet.
    Couldn't do anything else here really. In a jungle stuck at size 2. Didn't want to waste shields on a worker when it was already past 10 shields. A pikeman would have been ok too.

    Spoiler pictures of the end result before hitting Enter(end turn) :



    So I turned all your libraries and unit and wealth and other production stuff into: 1 treb, 1 pike, 9 workers, 7 settlers, 4 ducts and 5 markets. At the moment there's not enough spare dosh to use the science slider, so libraries are pointless except for the culture, but as a religious civ temples are better for that. I suppose if you wanted to spare some cash you could disable 50-100 units into your core cities and speed up library and other develpoments there, thus improving the economy and perhaps increasing the science slider to get gunpowder in less than 10 turns (not a made up number: I played a few turns and your empire can actually achieve this before the markets are even finished and without libraries). But where's the fun in that.

    If I was you (and in this game, I was), I'd go pick a fight with someone (which I did) and put those units to work in a good way (which I didn't, as it goes, but I'll leave the details to that in a spoiler afterwards). Just as was said earlier,
    As to who you could attack, well...
    India must still feel as thought theres room to expand still. When that changes he will want yours and start getting angry and then declare war, not good while he has elephants and you only have pikes. On the other hand it doesnt look like they have iron hooked up yet, but there is a source next to New Calcutta just across the bay from you. If thats the only one, you could easily cover it with 3 pikes fortified on a mountain. Strategically you could take about 5-6 turns getting your defenders in the core to fortify along your border cities, get any workers out of range first, then attack using stacks of cavs and pike-escorted swords. Start from Calcutta or maybe Madras and work left towards the weaker cities. Just hit them hard and fast enough to do maximum damage without a long drawn out war as im afraid dow-ing on India now will certainly trigger their GA assuming they haven't already had it. So just start from Calcutta, raze everything in your path and try and get peace with techs in about 10 turns.

    France has gunpowder and therefore musketeers, they dont seem to be fighting anyone atm, hopefully they wont use them any time soon, they are second in score and a GA now will turn them into a devastating enemy. I cant think of a good reason to attack them now, only bad ones: cant see their territory, they are very powerful and could be on the edge of a golden age, they have 5 defence musketeers to your 3 attack swords and cavs, best to wait till you level the playing field and can see them better.

    Rome would be a good choice, no iron although he has at least traded with someone in the past because I can see Legionnaires. They may have already triggered their GA fighting one of the Sumerians (yeah that's a point, I forgot about that, why have you got 2 Sumerians?) but they have a smallish territory, some of it is tundra also, they are surely an easy target at the moment with such a slim front line to work with. However they dont have much to give for peace. Best to let them stew for now, have fun with Caesar later. The particular Sumerians with which Rome are currently fighting dont have any horses so they must be fighting with MIs and pikes, not too devastating to a Rome with at least some Legionnaires in their defence, Caesar should be able to hang in there for a while longer. He certainly wont get any stronger.

    All in all India seems to be the bigger threat in the nearest future. Just cos Ghandi's merely cautious now doesnt make him a friend for life, and as you're his only neighbour you are definitely his number one priority. Also while he shares almost his entire western border with you, it's better to take the initiative sooner rather than later.
    Spoiler what happened in my game, so if you'd rather learn from your own mistakes and not from mine - NO PEEEKING :



    I totally lost the fight with India. In my defence, the above strategy should have worked but I executed it lazily. I split the attack in half because I couldn't be bothered to wait for all the units to arrive. One half went for Madras first where I got one last defender redlined but used up everything I had there. Then the same happened at Calcutta some 5 turns later. Of course, the first retaliation at Madras cleared up the mess that was my surviving units outside there, and then they came to destroy Matsuya. Shiminoseki was taken after the failure outside Calcutta. No great loss, I know, it's still a strong position to carry on from: India lost over a dozen elephants and at least as many spears and archers before they wanted to talk peace. I probably would have paid Rome to join in first, then made peace with India and let them both duke it out on their own.

    Oh, and to complicate things, one of the Gilgamesh's's (there's two of them, don't ask me how you pluralise and apostrophise people whose names are the same and both end is -sh) Enkidu warriors waltzed in and thought it was worth declaring war over a 1 pop town in the middle of the desert and so took it.

    If you like, I can attach any save from 1220-1255AD, or even the cleaned up save at 1130AD where I picked up after you left off. Just Pm me.
     
  15. civverguy

    civverguy Emperor

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    Did you already have a Golden Age? Because if you didn't, this would be a great time to research Chivalry and train samurai to attack India. Instead of researching gunpowder to train musketmen, you should train samurai because they have 2 more attack and one more movement with just 10 extra shields! My suggestion is to research Chivalry, train samurai, and attack India. Once you get a golden age with your samurai, make peace with India and you can develop your cities well.
     
  16. Norton II

    Norton II Emperor

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    He built the SoZ, so he got his golden age from that since Japan's rel/mil.
     
  17. Norton II

    Norton II Emperor

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    I played this out to 1320, and it didn't go too well:
    Spoiler :
    I followed my own advice, got some more workers out, plopped down a couple of new cities, and focused on economic recovery. Things were going pretty well; income was up, I was researching chemistry on the way to MT and could get it in a reasonable timeframe, and I was starting to produce military units again. Unfortunately, the Sumerians decided not to wait for me to get cavalry: they attacked in force around 1280 or so, bringing over 20 units into my territory. I lost two cities but razed two of theirs, and I managed to stop their main offensive, but they had more units coming, and in 1310, India jumped on me, too! Gilgamesh still wouldn't talk at that point, and it quickly became apparent that I wasn't going to be able to mount an effective counterattack before losing much of my territory, if I ever could. I don't know how I could have prevented this, and alliances weren't an option since I had nothing to bribe the other civs with (I inherited a broken trading rep and didn't have much in the way of hard goods). Maybe retro V's game will go better than mine.

    Also, something strange happened at one point: While I was at war with Sumeria, Gilgamesh contacted me and told me to remove or declare! I had a galley in his territorial waters, but we were already at war! Must be some kind of bug.
     
  18. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    Guys, thanks very much for all the comments and ideas on the Game.

    Some background on it :

    I expanded as fast as possible but because I had AI`s on 3 sides who were also expanding very fast ( how do they do that :mischief: ) and deep toward me, I had to go for deep placement as well so I didn`t get pinned against the ocean, which of course put my core cities too far from the Capitial which resulted in long build times in them. I`m not sure what else I could have done.

    Rome started a long War very early, which I probably prolonged too long ( my 1st. error ) after taking one City and they offered Peace. It also resulted in a too early GA due to the TOZ, when I would have prefered a later GA with Samurai. ( 2nd. error )

    I started a War with France, which dragged on too long.

    I really do need to manage the cities my self, but have usually not done well at that. ( 3rd. error )

    The army and worker unit management and placement was bad on my part but once I saw India had elephants, which nothing I have can make a dent in and which roll right over Pikeman, so I didn`t want to go to war with them until I got Cav.

    Anyway, thanks all, including Norton II, Keith, btfx, and especially reto V for taking the Game up. As you I also tried war with India with dismal results...:cry:

    In retrospect I should have tried to cripple India early.
     
  19. Mursi lives

    Mursi lives Warlord

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    First thing to do: get rid of those f*$#§ing governors. :deadhorse: The AI is too stupid. Also take control of your workers.

    Also get rid of republic. It's usaually the best form of governement, but here, with such a plethoric army, it's clearly inadequate. Switch to feudalism and later to communism.

    Send your soldiers to war. It's their job. Your first victim should be the Romans: they are weak, they are near, and they built the temple of Artemis for you. Send your army and your ancient cavs, capture Rome before Gilgamesh, trade peace for monotheism, and then attack another civ. While you are stomping Rome, build trebuchets. They will be useful angainst the musketmen.

    Don't switch to chivalry. You can get gunpowder in 7-8 turns under feudalism,
    get then chemistry and all techs until military tradition. Trade the techs you get for the other medieval non-optional techs and chivalry. (Get chivalry to build samurais and upgrade them when you get military tradition). The other optional techs (printing press, democracy, free artistry, music theory, economy and navigation) are useless.

    And use your galeys to explore the map. There are still 2 civs you didnt meet.
     
  20. axehaxe

    axehaxe Prince

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    Razing cities of a strong AI you plan to sign peace with soon is a BAD idea. The more cities you raze the angrier they get and they will delay the end of their silent treatment.

    Instead, try gifting those cities to a friendly AI. Sumeria will not declare war on that civ just to get that city back.
     

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