Thoughts about the future development

[Isabelxxx]

I have been playing a few games with DoaNE 2.01 with Debug Mode enabled. Also played many games with AI Autoplay.

I have come to the conclusion that you (M07 & Dazio) should take a breath and seriously think about the changes made up to now and those you want to implement.

- Fix the multiplayer

- Upgrades IA

- Adding commercial company

- Improve the exploration

- Improve economy

I don't want to sound rude but the AI is not working at all... I'm a bit disappointed now and therefore I can sound pessimistic.

Up to now we have many cool features but are they really working as they should be?

In my opinion additions should only be made if the AI is capable to handle them.
Now is the point when we should take a look at what have we done and seriously rebuild all from the start, speaking in AI terms.

DIFFICULTY LEVELS BELOW REVOLUTIONARY ARE UNPLAYABLE
I mean, that forcing the Human player to use builder packs to create new colonies is great but how is that affecting the AI?

I have experienced that ALL DIFFICULTY LEVELS BELOW REVOLUTIONARY doesn't work properly. The AI is not getting a Builder Wagon from the start and therefore doesn't establish a new colony since they don't know how to do it.

AI is not working properly

Automated Exploring doesn't work anymore due to the new "map System"
Your automated units will be moving in strange ways since path-finding is not working if every time you discover new tiles these are immediately converted to undiscovered tiles.

Also, after sending an unit far away from one of your cities, you can't send it again to your citiy... imagine you use a ship to explore the map, once you reaches the north for ex. you would want to send you ship to your colony so you get the new map.
You can not just send it directly to your city since all the sea already discovered is now unknown (!) and therefore path-finding is totally broken. I have tested this in maps with isles or continents and the ship doesn't know how to return since every turn it calculates new routes which cross zones that the ship can not move to...


The AI is not exploring goody huts which are placed next to their cities

The AI doesn't know where to place their Colonies, use naval transports or colonize new lands:

The AI doesn't know what to build in cities and it seems that they just build a factory without needing it:

Some features added to the game not working properly

Agronomist and Able Seaman are still able to found new colonies:

When recruiting a new unit in Europe. the Costs are not displayed properly:

All things related with Native needs some adjustments since they seem to be either War Robots which will destroy all your colonies or Kids who don't mind you stole their lands:
Needed some balance here, their attitude is totally extreme. Also some minor features like Native Raids or trading still need to be polished (trading is still not working properly as I told you, not solved yet).

Citizen automation is totally broken. They seem to be placed anywhere without any logic. And probably this is related to the way the AI is using their citizens and why they don't care about what to buy in Europe...

 

[Isabelxxx]

bump.

 

[Isabelxxx]

Here are my comments about the games played with Debug mode as promised.

There are some more, like the AI buying more than 10 units at the start of the game when the human player has not bought even 1 unit (human uses different Europe System), the AI creating 4 colonies in the first 50 turns but the player obtains their second builder pack much later, etc.

 

[Ceer]

I've been playing a game of DoaNE 2.00. Here is a list of the issues I've come across so far.

When recruiting a new unit in europe:

The initial price tends not to display properly. I have confirmed this by accepting the ridiculous looking asking price only to find out that it was something reasonable.

New units appear exceedingly rarely. This is probably balanced with the longer game duration (in turns) and the higher amount of money and the fact you have to pay for about 2/3 of your immigration.

I did notice that I got plenty of petty criminal sailors for a reasonable price.

Unit training

Explorer I promotion does not give +1 movement as indicated.

I didn't like my difficulty in obtaining veteran soldiers. I could not obtain enough from the european docks due to the random nature of the targeted immigration. They could not be trained in the University, even though the same town had a magazine cranking out muskets.

I ended up having 3 veteran soldiers during a period when the AI players had over 20 each.

This makes free colonist sailors the next best arquebusier. With an extra 2 movement and 15% withdrawal chance taken onto land, it adds quite the boost.

Issues with AI's

First up, I'd like to say I like the barter system for indian trade. It seems more realistic. That said, the AI is terrible when it comes to deciding on a fair deal.
1) Put 1 trade goods in a wagon and go to a native settlement and ask for 60 space worth of goods, then ask for a proposal. Without fail, the indians will ask for the 1 trade good and consider this fair. They will never ask you to lower what you're asking for.
2) Decide you don't want to pay a particular price that they asked for, and the indians may decide to boycott you.
3) A trade agreement can fail in 2 ways. First, you don't send enough convoys. Second, you send too many at one time, and the indians can't fill the order.

Next problem, the Dutch AI gave me about 40,000 gold. I didn't even have to ask for it, and he didn't ask for anything in return. I was cash strapped at the time, and was really able to use the money to buy a frigate...but still.

Gameplay issues

If you place your first city so that it encroaches on indian tiles, that starts making them very angry very quickly. I had 1 city encroach on one tribe, and 1 city encroach on another, and by 1600, they both had at least a -8 rating modifier based on my civilization being a threat to theirs. Wasn't even producing liberty bells, making weapons, or shipping troops from Europe.

I was also not able to figure out how to obtain a pirate ship or privateer. I tried bringing a Naval Escort back to a city with an improved dry dock, building a tavern, and even looked for one to build. No success. Intentional?

Starting around the 1530's, the founding fathers started to be obtained by the AI european civs at an incredible rate. By about 1600, all of the exploration and religious fathers were taken, leaving the military and religious almost untouched. About half the political ones were taken by then. The only way I could somewhat keep up with this rate of political points production was to produce it in my 3 primary colonies.

 

[Isabelxxx]

The initial price tends not to display properly. I have confirmed this by accepting the ridiculous looking asking price only to find out that it was something reasonable.

True, that has been already added to the list of bugs and reported to M07. But I will try to see what's wrong.

New units appear exceedingly rarely. This is probably balanced with the longer game duration (in turns) and the higher amount of money and the fact you have to pay for about 2/3 of your immigration.

In the nest version of Doane that is being tested I can say that this is more balanced.
I have 40-50% aprox. of natural immigration . Have in mind that factors like food, productivity and crosses do affect to to natural immigration, and are included in the reputation and history of your colony.

It was a concept previously added and now improved. There will be some explanations about it in the manual.

I did notice that I got plenty of petty criminal sailors for a reasonable price.

Now criminal sailors are obtained in the tavern, and a few as crew in Europe. But I don't think they will be too common anymore.

Explorer I promotion does not give +1 movement as indicated.

I will see.

I didn't like my difficulty in obtaining veteran soldiers. I could not obtain enough from the european docks due to the random nature of the targeted immigration. They could not be trained in the University, even though the same town had a magazine cranking out muskets.

You usually have to pay to obtain them. But that will not be a problem, believe me, in the next version there will be multiple ways to obtain gold. But you will have to do things like trading with natives, otherwise is normal you can't have enough gold for inmigration!

I ended up having 3 veteran soldiers during a period when the AI players had over 20 each.

I plan to change the AI to use more gold improving their economy and cities than buying units which will not be immediately used at the start.

This makes free colonist sailors the next best arquebusier. With an extra 2 movement and 15% withdrawal chance taken onto land, it adds quite the boost.

Sailor promotions will only work in sea.

First up, I'd like to say I like the barter system for indian trade. It seems more realistic. That said, the AI is terrible when it comes to deciding on a fair deal.
1) Put 1 trade goods in a wagon and go to a native settlement and ask for 60 space worth of goods, then ask for a proposal. Without fail, the indians will ask for the 1 trade good and consider this fair. They will never ask you to lower what you're asking for.
2) Decide you don't want to pay a particular price that they asked for, and the indians may decide to boycott you.
3) A trade agreement can fail in 2 ways. First, you don't send enough convoys. Second, you send too many at one time, and the indians can't fill the order.

Some things are already fixed, others not. I hope M07 will improve this.

Next problem, the Dutch AI gave me about 40,000 gold. I didn't even have to ask for it, and he didn't ask for anything in return. I was cash strapped at the time, and was really able to use the money to buy a frigate...but still.

Situation? Turn?

If you place your first city so that it encroaches on indian tiles, that starts making them very angry very quickly. I had 1 city encroach on one tribe, and 1 city encroach on another, and by 1600, they both had at least a -8 rating modifier based on my civilization being a threat to theirs. Wasn't even producing liberty bells, making weapons, or shipping troops from Europe.

I do want to change this. Currently it makes no sense how the natives behave with the human player...

I was also not able to figure out how to obtain a pirate ship or privateer. I tried bringing a Naval Escort back to a city with an improved dry dock, building a tavern, and even looked for one to build. No success. Intentional?

Send to Europe and change the flag.

Starting around the 1530's, the founding fathers started to be obtained by the AI european civs at an incredible rate. By about 1600, all of the exploration and religious fathers were taken, leaving the military and religious almost untouched. About half the political ones were taken by then. The only way I could somewhat keep up with this rate of political points production was to produce it in my 3 primary colonies.

I have also seen this, but has been fixed a bit in next version. In my games the religious path is untouched but they take most of the others grandfathers.
Also have in mind your difficulty level! I play on revolutionary and it's really hard. But on lowers levels you can easily obtain many grandfathers.

 

[Ceer]

You usually have to pay to obtain them. But that will not be a problem, believe me, in the next version there will be multiple ways to obtain gold. But you will have to do things like trading with natives, otherwise is normal you can't have enough gold for inmigration!

Gold isn't the problem. Availability is the problem. I had at LEAST 2k for most of the game (usually a lot more, I was buying ships after all) which is plenty for the recruitment.

The only thing I was really lacking was crosses. The game never put a firebrand preacher on the docks at a time I could have a ship there to take him away.

Still, the game says my chances of recruitment were 18%. I take this to mean 18% per turn, correct? Over a 20 year span, with recruitment active all the time, we should expect about 7.2 units to show themselves on the docks, but I wasn't getting anywhere near this rate of immigration.

Situation? Turn?

The turn is about Jan 1598 - Jan 1612. Not sure about the exact date, but can provide my save files if there's a way to upload it.

Situation: 3 continents. 1 large northern continent, shaped roughly like a lower case tau that's fat around the cross section. I'm on that continent with the french. I have 5 colonies, have plenty of roads and a working economy, but not producing bells. France has 3 colonies, few roads, but has been producing bells.

Netherlands is on the southeast part of the southwest continent. Spain is on most of the smaller southeast continent.

My relationships with the Europeans and natives are all peaceful. Everyone except the Aztec and Iroquois have significant surplus in relationship rating points.

About 1596 or so, I have over 50,000 gold stored up, so I buy a frigate...which leaves me about 2k, all said and done. This goes on for a while, and I am switching ports from east coast to west coast to avoid pirates. it takes my wagons a few turns to switch my supply route, and I have to build the warehouse in the west.

During this time, I still have about 2k gold, have a decent economy, and am producing a mix of tools, buildings, and finished goods. Netherlands pops up and gives me 40,000 gold.

Some things are already fixed, others not. I hope M07 will improve this.[]

I noticed that when I had the goods in stock, the Indians would typically ask for about 1 trade good per 2 resource they give you. This is a good trade, and I think, for the amount of money you need to spend in Europe on ships, immigration, and supplies...quite reasonable.

My suggestion is to have the natives stick to a 1.75:1 - 2.25:1 resource:trade good ratio.

For trade agreements, I would suggest defining them by number of trades, then capping the refresh rate. IE: trade agreement negotiated on Jan. 1575 for 20 trades 15 tools for 32 tobacco. Next trade contract can be negotiated Jan. 1585 (20 turns from the previous agreement).

If the player cannot/will not deliver the goods, that Indian tribe should just not give the option to negotiate another agreement until he does.

I do want to change this. Currently it makes no sense how the natives behave with the human player...

The current situation would be more balanced if there were quests to placate the natives. Say, natives ask for special relief aid every x number of turns. Or, the natives could ask you to garrison a military unit in one of their villages for x many turns. Rewards would be a +1 or 2 stackable relationship bonus that diminishes over time.

I think if you take this route, you don't necessarily HAVE to change the core behavior of the "Your way of life is threatening to ours" dynamic, just give the player an option to improve relations another way. Doing it that way, I think will make the game seem more engaging.

 

[Ceer]

I finished my game of Dawn of a New Era 2.00, keeping a look out for more possible bugs. Here are some of the ones I found.

I found another spot where the AI is willing to give you hordes of gold. Samuel had previously asked for about 2,000 gold, so I complied. This is about 100 turns later. Sammy is my closest neighbor.

Spoiler :

Next, the rate of targeted immigration remains very weak throughout the game. After I manage to get a few expert preachers, this is what my immigration situation looks like:

Spoiler :

--I have not been able to get a positive immigration value for cross production.
--There seems to be no way to recruit Jesuit Missionaries, nor is there a way to change a non-missionary into a missionary.





Next up, I tried to figure out how to follow Isabell's advice by moving a ship to Europe, then switching the flags. I believe this is the screen of importance.

Spoiler :

Notice the disabled 2 and 5 options. As I remember, 5 is to repair the ship, and 2 has not been lit up for any ship during this game, including the naval escorts.





This is a picture of me trying to educate a citizen. Note the available professions.

Spoiler :

Keep in mind, that this city has a Jesuit, an Agronomist, a Veteran Soldier, and a Veteran Artilleryman. I would find out later that Army Doctor and Army Surgeon would be included in this untrainable list.

Given the amount of money I'm making at this point, and the lack of things to spend it on, I'd say it's balanced to include a 50% training cost increase across the board.

For the missing professions, it would be fair to include them at about 1,000 gold each.

Agronomist should act like a normal population in terms of other occupations, but have the agronomist occupation open to it. Similar to how the Jesuit Missionary is now.

For Missionary, I would recommend either making Jesuits trainable at the college or open up the Missionary profession to all types of population.





Seasoned Scouts are a mixed bag. I like that they gain promotions by movement. In testing, they gained movement exp by 1 for each square moved outside your territory that did not benefit from roads. Benefits max out at +2 movement, +1 sight distance at 300 movement exp, -1 movement if the unit has 3 or more movement if the unit is a Seasoned Scout. Figuring out this last part took me a bit.

Spoiler :

When I cleared this guy's specialty, he gained an instant movement point. So, apart from any goody hut and village visiting bonus, I'm not sure if there's any benefit to leaving them as seasoned scouts. Suggested improvement, get rid of the 1 movement penalty and add...say a 30% chance to escape to a settlement if loosing (similar to a pirate ships ability) and a -1 terrain cost if unmounted (colonist, swordsman, arquebusier, or pioneer professions). This should be an ability based on the specialty of Seasoned Scout, usable in several professions.

The promotions themselves should be more along the lines of:
Explorer 1) +1 movement range
Explorer 2) -1 terrain cost, +1 sight range
Explorer 3) +1 movement range, can use enemy roads, can heal while moving

This would allow scouts to take advantage of their 3 movement while unmounted in difficult terrain, slow them up a bit if mounted on difficult terrain. Healing in general has been nerfed in this mod, especially while outside your borders.

Clearing the profession would change from a bonus to a liability, especially if you're trying to have him fight in rough terrain.






Now that the units are taken care of, I'd like to show an issue with the city functioning at high rebel sentiment.

Spoiler :

It appears that when rebel sentiment is higher than 50% in a settlement, the efficiency of production actually goes down. I can't speak for combat, because I had problems getting the REF to actually attack me. Not that it didn't try. It left for the new world. On my first play of the revolution, it simply failed to arrive, and I won the game.

So I decided to investigate. Using the world editor, I found that the REF came across to the new world nowhere near my colonies, which were in the center. There is a huge peninsula blocking these guys from my beaches.

Spoiler :

This screenie shows my fleet about to pulverize the REF before it gets anywhere NEAR my colonies. The top ship in the stack has been fighting pirates as a frigate. I recently sold off the frigate and built him a shiny new ship of the line. Many of the others have between 3 and 17 exp for combat either because they came with it on the docks, or because they have also been fighting pirates. The typical chance for victory with a less experienced crew is about 30%.

For balance purposes, I'd suggest the combat odds against a REF ship max out at about 30% chance, with extra combat promotions going towards your ship's survivability (probably along the lines of withdraw if loosing). This will preserve the King's historical badass status as well as allow a decent naval fight to be possible.

 

[Isabelxxx]

@Ceer:

I take note of your comments. Really appreciated! Please take the time to write anything more you see "strange", I will revise all these things because you are right in most of the cases.

I will not be commenting specific things but I agree with you in most things and also had my own (similar) ideas to balance and fix them. Some of these things have been rebalanced through the development of the next version but I will slowly revise all to be sure I don't left anything.

I have been also re balancing the promotion and experience part of the mod so now they are useful but not determinant. I couldn't understand why natives were so strong compared to swordman for ex. or why a 3 level unit was so overpowered compared to a 1 level unit (those +30 % ... per promotion needed to be lowered!)