Thoughts of a FFH2 newcomer

[Fleme]

Apparently I'm late for this party

Yea, I just recently discovered FFH2 - or well I had discovered it a long time ago actually, but didn't think anything of it back then. I'm coming from BtS, playing Immortal and a few Deity games on Marathon. My background in CFC is in the Strategy & Tips section and I guess that's what drove me here with my questions and ideas rather than the general ffh forum. We'll just have to wait and see if there are users here

Anyhow, I've now played some (actual) 4 games, none of which I've actually finished (1. I started on Noble with the Lanun on an Island and frankly that felt too easy so I quit, 2. Moved to Immortal, played svarts and got Pyre Zombie'd, 3. Svarts again and got some 15 cities peacefully and with everything covered in Ancient Forests and cities pushing 30 I thought I have the AI's beat so I decided what the heck, let's start again and here's where I'm now.

Bear with me for not recalling the civ names but this time I started as the Amurites on an Inland Sea map, Large, 10 AI's as I recall it and drew a good start with a few corn, gold and a couple of floodplains. Having learned my lessons I started spamming warriors - I saw 4 barrows from my city. Anyhow, I guess this is my first question: Is worker first ever a valid strategy? I've done it a couple of times when just trying out starts but at first I was playing Marathon and was looking at something like 60+ turns for Agriculture and realized that maybe it wasn't really the best course of action. I've since abandoned Marathon and went down to Epic but the question remains: Is it ever viable to go worker first?

Now, as my current game with the Amurites I pretty much decided that a) I won't get crushed by barbarians nor b) Pyre Zombies. Looking at the civilopedia I found one somewhat easily accessible "hard" counter for them, that being Destroy undead. So, with the good commercial terrain I pretty much beelined to adepts and then Wizards through Alteration (was it that?). Now, I find myself thinking whether this is a good play? I mean, sure, Wizards are great but I neglected some of the more basic stuff like Sanitation to go there and my cities were stuck at size 9-10. I did manage to backill with trades and a lucky very late hut netted me Bowyers which of course was huge for trading and the Firebows. The upside of my play to beeline mages just to be ready for Pyre Zombies (Am I the only one who hates those? I mean, I can deal with anything but I had Alazkan + several high exp assassins just die against those bastards).

My western neighbor are the light elves and I have the Luchuirp to the southeast. However, in the corner of the map I just have to find the Sheaim. He's not sharing a border but at that point I feel I did allright by beelining towards Wizards right away. The elves are peaceful and eventhough I don't know about the warring probabilities of the civs in this mod I've gotten the golem builders pacified by sharing RoK and some generous trades in their direction.

The play? I had a skeleton military and I'm not talking skeletons but instead pretty much just 1 warrior in every city with one really experienced hunter who had cleaned the countryside from all things evil. With him, one, the first, Firebow and the four Adepts I chopped out to gain level in order to become Wizards. And 8 turns from being able to upgrade to Wizards, the Sheaim dows. Hm? Well, at this point he doesn't even share a border and sends just 1 zombie through the Luchuirp. No reinforcements come and I get to Wizards, upgrade and send my 1 Firebow, 1 Hunter and 4 Wizards on the offense Yes, I really did attack with just 6 units for two reasons: 1) Beeri Bawl had declared on him as well - although wood golems apparently aren't such a good idea on Pyres, who knew? - so I wanted to take as many cities as I could and get vengeance for the wrongs he did to me in the past.

Realizing that casters can cast after moving (which I find somewhat imbalanced) I moved my stack from city to city, which pretty consistently host 15 zombies and nothing else each and storm through his empire. With hastes, occasional spellstaff, one regeneration, 10 turns and some 70 dead zombies later my army of 6 stand victorious.

Now I find myself thinking which is really the imbalanced thing? I mean, I'm sure I've just scratched the surface here with finding one counter to another thing and haven't really delved deep in the tech tree to find things that are actually powerful but in my little sandbox this made me feel like king. I'm still questioning whether this was a good play and more importantly, was it the only play to make? How do you counter Pyres early on?

Furthermore, I'm asking if there is a tradition of playing "showgames" or games others can shadow on this forum? I would like to learn by playing and getting advice from others and develop my game that way. I find my weak point in FFH2 (with civs other than Lanun on the coast) is commerce and I can never get to numbers of research that would satisfy me and would love to hear some good tips about it. Moving past that, doing a game in 50 turn segments and then posting screenies and whatnot to get advice would be great but I toss the ball to you: Is there enough community in this particular part of the forum to make such games viable?

Sorry for the long post. Great mod, I'm immersed.

 

[DaveGold]

AI Shaeim opponents are the worst enemy until you get destroy undead and then they become the easiest. The AI will usually get archers and mages to go with the zombies but they fail to build the planar gates they really need.

You do typically need an excess of units and good tactics to defeat the zombies militarily. Hit and run, attrition, splitting the stack, etc can all work. The worst case scenario, probably 12 zombies coming along a ridge of hills to your city, all with bronze weapons and promotions from a previous war, plus Othus's axe thrown in, can be pretty dire as you're going to lose all your top units even scratching the stack.

 

[xalien]

Few good ways to counter PZ's:

1 - upgrade your early warriors with combat 4, magic resistance and fire resistance, then go with drill if you still have xp left and upgrade them to archers. They'll be immune to PZ explosions and should be able to hold their onslaught quite nicely.

2 - get life mana, get Deception, adopt CoE and build Gibbon which is an early archmage (channeling 3 unit). Give him life 2 spell and turn him into the ultimate undead killer.

Gibbon is great for many things. Nature 3 spell can vitalize, all his summons are illusions which means that while they can't kill on offence, when defending they heal 100% after killing a living unit. Now summon something powerful like earth elemental in the city under siege and watch how 100 axemen suicide against him in a single turn. Shadow 3 summon is a hidden nationality unit that can pillage - great source of income and for wrecking your neighbours economy with impunity.

 

[avalonnn]

The hunters must have been very high level.

Frankly, I like attacking either with Sphener (heal before attack each turn) or Arthendain (free destroy undead each turn).

Also -- you did not use govannon? Giving your hunters some level 1 spells would have made it all even easier.

The firebow was lowering the defense of the city -- were the cities low on culture? Try attacking a 100% city with that stack ...

 

[blade117]

In a pinch, there is always Chalid... Properly promoted. that guy owns all. Partially why I don't use him often.

 

[Selrahc]

Furthermore, I'm asking if there is a tradition of playing "showgames" or games others can shadow on this forum? I would like to learn by playing and getting advice from others and develop my game that way. I find my weak point in FFH2 (with civs other than Lanun on the coast) is commerce and I can never get to numbers of research that would satisfy me and would love to hear some good tips about it. Moving past that, doing a game in 50 turn segments and then posting screenies and whatnot to get advice would be great but I toss the ball to you: Is there enough community in this particular part of the forum to make such games viable?

I've seen a few of those on this forum but nothing much at the moment.

We're in the middle of a Play By Email game over on the Realms Beyond forums though which probably fits the bill. I've certainly been doing my best to explain the mod to newcomers in the process of playing and I'd imagine the others players are doing something similar.

 

[Fleme]

I'm sadly not the kind of person who'd have the long nerve to sit through a PBEM game. Tried, tested, didn't work for me

I reckon that once I'm through with my current game I might start one that's public just for the kicks of it. Nothing too fancy but just a similar game you'd see running in the regular Strat&Tips section every now and again.

I like the complexity of this mod alot and just yesterday I kind of devoted my entire day to building the strongest Flesh Golem I could think of and I must say I had a ton of fun with him. Once he got to Acheron, the odds were 99,9% in the golems favor. (He ate three heroes I think, on top of a whole host of various units, good fun)

 

[JonathanStrange]

My two cents on the OPs questions, having played the game mostly at Immortal/Deity level for quite a long time:

I guess this is my first question: Is worker first ever a valid strategy?

It mostly depends on your starting position and level: Pangaea maps usually lead to early and frequent attacks and pillaging; a worker start there wouldn't be optimal. Islands, peninsulas, bottlenecks - those would be better fitting for worker starts. Personally, I still think it'd be risky though. I rarely play that way even if my Elven worker had something to do besides building farms for barbarians to pillage.

So, with the good commercial terrain I pretty much beelined to adepts and then Wizards through Alteration (was it that?). Now, I find myself thinking whether this is a good play?

I'm a fan of directing one's research to a goal - and it worked out for you that time, so hat's off there - but,in general, those are fairly pricey techs to head for right off, especially if the hated PZs aren't at your borders. I usually avoid skimping on economic and other techs just to be prepared for a distant enemies. I head that way but I keep closer eyes on the neighbors first.

The play? I had a skeleton military and I'm not talking skeletons but instead pretty much just 1 warrior in every city with one really experienced hunter who had cleaned the countryside from all things evil.

This sounds very risky, particularly at the higher levels. The FFH2 AI that I've experienced is pretty opportunistic and one warrior per city and a single hunter? That's risky business. The map may have justified the tiny garrisons? I don't know. I like small garrisons too but unless I had some compelling reason, I'd have more than one warrior at home.

I'm still questioning whether this was a good play and more importantly, was it the only play to make? How do you counter Pyres early on?

It's hard to tell without maps and civilizations involved and etc. if the play was solid - winning's great but sometimes I've won because I've joined a dogpile on the Sheaim and other times, I think I've done everything I could with what I had and still the PZs won out. I don't see the PZs as particularly fiercesome as I think a civilization that's expanded, researched well, developed its economy well can handle the PZs without resorting to one method. It's great to advance against them like you did and ruthlessly win battle after battle - great that your neighbors stood by too - but I don't think it necessary to judge the PZs as the ones to take out.

Interesting post you had. It made me remember an early game of mine when, in desperation, I sent my Treants to their deaths against the PZs. Oh, the humanity!

 

[Fleme]

^ The map (Inland Sea) did justify a skeleton military that time, I haven't done it since. I managed to fogbust the terrain and leave a warrior fortified next to all the forts and barrows to minimize threats from there. Nextdoor neighbors save for the Sheaim were Friendly and easy to please and I feared no attacks from them.

I'm now playing as my first game as the Sheaim and it almost feels like cheating how easy I'm able to take down entire civs with an axeman-level unit.

Thanks for the good answers.

 

[JonathanStrange]

So you've got over to the Pyre side, eh? Erebus help us all!

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

pyre zombies are very nasty. if you happen to spawn near the sheaim, do expect an early PZ rush. you need something with high mobility to counter it, Destroy Undead comes way too late. horsemen are ideal, hunters can do the job but you need mobility I. you need something with 3 movements or more. park them 2 tiles away from a flatland tile you think the zombies are going to step on. when they do, attack with one unit at a time, then retreat. you need superior numbers as those guys guys are nasty and can get metal weapons so they're probably going to be better than your horsemen 1-on-1. honestly it's the worst thing that can happen imho, it's early and very hard to counter.

 

[Emptiness]

Sometimes even one hero, properly promoted, can make a difference:

Spoiler hail the conquering hero :

Before Os-Gabella attacked me I had managed to build Saverous (while I had the Aggressive and Raiders traits - sometimes it's good to be Perpentach), and then promoted him with Combat II + III, Magic Resistance, Resist Fire, Drill I - IV, and March. 90% Fire resistance means he effectively doesn't take damage from Pyre Zombies that die, and 3-7 first strikes means he often doesn't take damage defeating them either. Her first stack of 25 PZs suicided into Saverous in a 30% defense city, and then he chased the survivors back to Sheaim territory. Now he's in the process of single-handedly conquering the Sheaim, although I do have to choose my targets carefully because if he dies I lose the game.

Having Demon, Combat I and Commando for free is a big boost to this method, but any Hero can put up a decent fight as long as you get it early enough to earn all the free xp before the Sheaim attack. 101 xp (I usually save a lair in my area and have the hero explore it for that 1 extra xp granting another level) will give you 10 promotions to spend -> Combat I-III, MR, RF, Drill I-IV, March. That's enough to make a good PZ killer. Of course one hero can only be in one place at a time, and sometimes that's not enough to save you - but having one unit that can stand up against Pyre Zombies is better than not having any units that can do so.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I guess you people don't play Wild Mana? in WM, a pyre zombie rush is the scariest thing ever, and the Sheaim LOVE doing it. you couldn't even remotely build saverous by then, let alone get it to have all those promos. all you have are T2 units, and they'll have just as many if not more as long as you're playing a decent difficulty level. they'll also be stronger that yours due to extra XP. all in all it really gets you to squeeze those human wits hard to use the one advantage the AI doesn't have, brains

 

[Zechnophobe]

Citing Sphenor, arthendian, Chalid etc as good to combat PZ's is a little unrealistic. Those are late game hero's, while PZ's are possibly being built 60 turns into the game. The best bet is to get some early 'stopper' effect, or Destroy Undead. If you can tech Radiant guards, that'll work fairly well, though obviously even those are still 'later' in the game then PZ's.

But not THAT much later, and only a few should keep a SoD at bay for a decently long time. Long enough at least. Then go in with Destroy undead, or horsemen + maelstrom or some other combo. Ratha's are of course, awesome.

 

[DaveGold]

Sometimes a stack of archers in a city on a hill, with a herbalist and any priest unit, will actually defend well enough in the early game. Some of the zombies will die and splash, some will kill an archer and not splash. If you can survive that initial attack and cut the stack down from 10 units to 5 or so then it's nowhere near as dangerous.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I still maintain the Sheaim are no more fiercesome than a number of other civs. This isn't the first time we've had a "civ X is strong - too strong thread." I'm not minimizing the PZ menace but who hasn't had problems with some civ at some point? I've had games where the Hippus cut a swathe of destruction across the continent or the Clan of Embers cross into our lands on turn 25 with swarms of wolfriders (where did they come from) or...

DaveGold's comment I think is pretty accurate and typical in my experience. [to_xp]Gekko is right that WildMana's mod helps turn an early next-door-neighbor Sheaim into a wild ride of a game. I usually use some variant of Zechnophobe's tactics but I'm flexible there.

 

[DaveGold]

I still maintain the Sheaim are no more fiercesome than a number of other civs.

Oh they are. The first problem is that you can't preserve your units keeping quality. Any early unit can die from splash damage even if looks like a safe attack. The second problem is that you can't use a pile of units (warriors) to defend which makes them worse than other opponents, especially since you struggle to attack their stack as well (problem 1). The third problem is that your troops constantly need to heal which reduces your options. The fourth problem is that the AI sheiam can generate the zombies really quickly, promoting all their warriors as soon as they get bronze working. The fifth problem is that the AI sheiam can conquer other AI nations very early and send highly promoted pyre zombies against you which makes them virtually unstoppable. The sixth problem is that bronze axemen are strong units anyway, making them tough to take down with horsemen and hunters. The seventh problem is that in the early game you have access to only the most basic units and you need quality to fight pyre zombies.

The Tasunke Hippus are tough opponents but the Sheiam are really bad neighbours. Once you get some quality in your empire you're alright, but at the start of the game you just don't have quality units.

 

[UncleJJ]

I've never had a real problem with Sheaim, but I only play up to emperor level. By the time they attack I can always handle it in a cost effective way and I don't usually attack them until I have Destroy Undead which makes it a joke taking over their lands.

(n.b. I have not actually ever had to do this, but please explain why it doesn't work)

It seems to me that as long as you remain on the defensive and build plenty of roads you can usually anihilate invading PZ stacks using just warriors on a cost effective basis. With equal promotions a bronze warrior versus a PZ is strength 4 versus strength 5 and has a reasonable chance of winning the first round and will usually severly damage the PZ even if it loses. So when your warrior stack is 2 tiles away send your warriors against the PZ stack one at a time along a road and make a suicide attack. Any warrior winning a round will be likely be killed by the explosion so DaveGold is right in saying you can't build experience, but then neither can the PZ's, if they die. This means that as long as you have at least twice as many warriors as the invading force has PZs you should be able to kill it and use less hammers in the process, but don't expect many highly promoted warriors, they are entirely disposable. If the PZs sit on hills or in forests then they're more difficult to deal with but a catapult or two might solve that problem, or just even more warriors.

Of course if you have to turn your nation over to extreme warrior spam it probably means you lose the game to another civ that uses the time spent to pull ahead in the technology race, but at least you didn't die to the Sheiam

 

[DaveGold]

(n.b. I have not actually ever had to do this, but please explain why it doesn't work)

OK.

So when your warrior stack is 2 tiles away send your warriors against the PZ stack one at a time along a road and make a suicide attack.

If you have roads that's fine. The PZ always attack early enough so that you don't have roads covering all your borders. If they march along a line of hills you're hard pushed to attack them at any decent odds.

This means that as long as you have at least twice as many warriors as the invading force has PZs you should be able to kill it and use less hammers in the process, but don't expect many highly promoted warriors, they are entirely disposable.

Unfortunately in any war against the AI where you're trying to outproduce and exchange units 2:1, even cheap warriors, you're likely to lose. It also shows another problem, when fighting the sheaim or hippus you typically customize your forces so much you weaken your defences against other enemies. You also fail to take Sheiam cities this way so you never end the war in your favour.

 

[UncleJJ]

It seems I was unduly pesimistic. Some tests with WB reveal that warriors can tackle stacks of PZ with relative ease and with an average cost of about 1 warrior per PZ on flat terrain.

The test was against a stack of 12 PZ on flat ground and the first 12 warriors all died but killed 4 PZ. This was a bit better than expected as the game gave a 24% chance of a warrior victory. Then the second wave of warriors went in against the 8 damaged PZ. All the PZ were killed and due to the weaker explosions 6 warriors survived although badly damaged. So overall 12 PZ were killed at a cost of 14 warriors.

Another test against a PZ on a wooded hill revealed that 3 warriors can kill it losing 2 in the process. That is still a net hammer gain.

Other tests combing a big stack warriors with few horsemen but there was no great gain. The horsemen survived and easily picked off the wounded PZ but had poor chances (60% plus 15% withdrw) against full strength PZ and if they survived were badly damaged. This means a horsemen basically cancels a PZ but needs warrior support to be very effective.

DaveGold, I suggest you try a few WB tests and see what you can find.

I conclude that PZ (as used by the AI) are overrated by many players.