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Thoughts on A/B/C bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Milae, May 22, 2020.

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What do you think of A/B/C bonuses?

  1. Like them.

    8 vote(s)
    22.9%
  2. No strong opinion.

    4 vote(s)
    11.4%
  3. Don't like them.

    12 vote(s)
    34.3%
  4. Don't like the production part.

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Aenigmata

    Aenigmata Chieftain

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    Am curious, how was this not discovered till now? Surely whoever wrote this code must of known it wouldn't scale with gamespeed?

    Looking at the wiki Founding a city doesn't seem to be listed? That aside, I'm not a fan of that or any of the other conditions either as they all for the most part work off one another and contribute to snowballing.
     
  2. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    I have an ongoing OBSERVER game with 8 King AIs while following the handicap bonus log.

    Observations:
    1. Production is only given out when a city is found or when entering a new era, and I think winning a war? Not sure about the last one.
    2. Most triggers (Great People, Wonder, Trade, Dig) give only Gold and GAP.
    3. Somehow there's only one GA trigger in the whole game, on Russia. Someone needs to take a look at that.
     
  3. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Gazebo wrote the code. There's a chance it may be intentional, but I think it's just an oversight (they do happen, especially in a project this large).

    Founding a city is mentioned in the paragraphs above the Historic Event triggers. I'll edit that list to be more clear next version.

    Production is given on city founding, winning a war, entering a new era, or starting a Golden Age. 2 is intentional. Regarding issue 3, what version are you playing?
     
  4. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    3-1b
     
  5. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Issue 3 was fixed for the 4-17 version.
     
    azum4roll likes this.
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    Great, if only the inquisitor thing is easily modifiable... :crazyeye:
     
  7. Milae

    Milae Chieftain

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    Yea, I quite like the sound of that honestly. Like I said I think having the bonuses closer tailored to what the civ is doing could make things more interesting and this definitely seems like a good way of doing that without giving larger amounts to civs which are already ahead.

    I'm still quite a lot in favour of just removing the production bonus though. And also food bonus could be replaced with a percentage reduction in food required to grow a city. This would remove some complications with the local/global amounts as well.


    Yea true, seems like if you gave the AIs a 20% bones to say science, you could multiply the player's science need modifier by 100/120 to balance it out though and that should work? Also i wouldn't say the happiness system feels finely tuned on higher difficulties atm anyways.

    Tbh I hadn't really thought about this before but I think you have a pretty good point.
    Tradition is generally a snowball policy tree that pretty much benefits from just having more of everything (population, buildings, wonders, religion etc.). For a player has a big weakness in that it's hard to get enough population in capital and very hard to get other cities online but AIs don't have this problem at all.
    Progress is used by players to get resources and outer cities online quickly. This is not really necessary for AIs as they can do this easily anyways. But they do get some bonuses from the culture for building buildings and having city connections and they like to go wide usually anyways so I would say that Progress AIs can do well as well as long as they have some space.
    Authority I think the AIs struggle with a lot though. Production bonus which is one of the best parts of Authority for players is just not as useful for them as they have a lot of production anyways. Most of the bonuses especially to science and culture though come from killing units and conquering which the AIs will always struggle with doing effectively so they do tend to fall behind and never really snowball with it unless it is a very small, flat map like great plains.

    One other thing is that rationalism is crazy good for AIs which tradition civs tend to go for as well.

    Not sure what can really be done about this though as the policies are reasonably balanced for players I think and this is probably only a big deal on high difficulties.
     
  8. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    The A/B/C bonuses make the game challenging throughout. For the higher difficulty levels, the scaling bonuses also devalue the early game, because even if you beat the AI, they still manage to come back later on with the bonuses. Non rationalism AI civs seem to keep up in science with rationalism humans and rationalism AI civs manage to keep up with production. But that seems to be the nature and challenge of playing at the higher levels.
     
    Phosphoraptor, vyyt and InkAxis like this.
  9. Drakle

    Drakle Warlord

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    Maybe the bonuses should be tied to the policy trees in some way. Say rationalism gets the full science bonus but a lesser production bonus. While Industry gets the full production boost, with a lesser science bonus. Just to make the AI a bit more focused in strength instead of a jack of all trades.
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  10. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    This would work better if the AI became a little less reluctant to take Progress, Fealty, or Artistry.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    Seriously, the AIs don't get Culture/Science/Production much after the initial settling spree. They do get lots of gold and GAP though. Maybe that's the reason Statecraft AIs tend to perform well...
     
  12. Milae

    Milae Chieftain

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    Just had a thought that wouldn't a cost reduction for things (techs, policies etc) achieve the goal of buffing the AIs without giving yields so happiness is unaffected?

    Cost reductions can be made to scale with era (like production costs) so that lategame and early game could be balanced correctly.

    Also I think this would make the AIs feel less cheaty as they wouldn't have weird spikes and be rewarded for meeting somewhat arbitrary conditions. But instead would effectively receive greater rewards for doing the same thing humans are trying to do (Making as much yields as possible).
     
  13. Milae

    Milae Chieftain

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    Okay fair enough. Do you have any numbers for this? Genuinely curious.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Right now the AI bonus I find the least fun is the instant production for settling cities, because of how it affects the race for religion, in particular how you basically always get the 8th pantheon on Deity.

    The population affects this too (because it affects pantheons like ancestor worship).

    The early culture and population for AI definitely help AI who take tradition more than the other two trees.
     
  15. kawyua

    kawyua Warlord

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    Being a religion founder and not is such a huge difference in power. for players, it artificially makes the game such that civs that get help with early faith consistently gets a better start into midgame than those that don't. I wish there were more interesting things to do with not being a religious founder, but there really isn't.

    I think ever since the change for ai getting instant yields from settling the capital is when these frontloaded yields really exacerbated the religion race issue? It was still a bit of an issue before that change, i think? before the capital intstant yield change, some ai didn't build shrine first or settle that quickly so it wasn't consistently that bad. Playing from behind has its own fun and difficulty for the game, but it royally screws the player over if its enough to make the player lose the religion race.

    when i was playing standard deity, ai gets 73 food, production, gold and gap points right from settling the capital which is enough to build monument (45 production for them) and then shrine about 2 turns later or so at the latest. So, i'm always dead last with pantheon lol, ruins or not. By itself, there absolutely is merit that the yields are necessary to get an ai civ running and its quite hard to gib a civ completely now with something like the aztecs/celts. but still, the ai are too consistently founding in a range where its nearly impossible for a normal player civ to found in a reasonable manner.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Your only other option is to build an army big enough to conquer the religious neighbour. Not founding and playing peacefully is what does not look like a viable option, unless you are Byzantium.
     
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  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'll try a game with peace and no religion and see how far I can get.

    We could look at removing maybe just the production for settling a capital. The AI would still have extra food and gold so they still get a much faster start than a human would. The current AI pantheon situation makes specifically India, Byzantium, and the Celts really appealing.

    Right now, it feels to me that the top tier for Deity single player are the religious civs. Next up I'd say its civs with very good early game to rush things (like America) or very good late game (like Austria), who can overpower the AI's C bonus. It seems to me that right now on Deity civs who are kind of mid-range (like Morocco) struggle to get a religion but also don't have the late game muscle to keep up with the AI's C bonus in the late game.
     
    Drakle, Phosphoraptor, tu_79 and 2 others like this.
  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Agree with @CrazyG. I'm assuming his rankings are for peaceful, as otherwise I'd add that certain warmongers are also in the top tier (Songhai mainly, Persia / Sweden also, because they have enough early game power to win and start snowballing.)
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I know we did remove the bonuses from the initial settle at one point. It was reverted back, don’t remember the reason why, I’m guessing people then thought it was too easy
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I was thinking we remove only the production from only the capital (if possible). The other yields could stay. This is because my guess is that the production is what drives the AI to get a shrine, and then a pantheon, so quickly, which stacks on a lot of extra difficulty.
     

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