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Thoughts on A/B/C bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Milae, May 22, 2020.

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What do you think of A/B/C bonuses?

  1. Like them.

    8 vote(s)
    22.9%
  2. No strong opinion.

    4 vote(s)
    11.4%
  3. Don't like them.

    12 vote(s)
    34.3%
  4. Don't like the production part.

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    that’s what I’m talking about as well, and we have tried that at one point, so curious the reason we reverted it last it last time. @Gazebo
     
  2. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    I think the reason it got reverted is people complained it had become too easy. A better remedy for it being easy is stronger mid and lategame bonuses I think, the earlygame is very fragile.
     
    Phosphoraptor and tu_79 like this.
  3. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    That's exactly what I was proposing in the deity thread. More power to the AI but at later stages. Just reverting it and not increasing other bonuses would result in too easy game. It would also help make more smooth immortal, people were reporting similar situation with vanilla like beginning and unbearable pantheon/religion race.
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't recall this patch, and I couldn't find it via forum search. If someone can point me at which month it was from, I'll play the early game and make notes of pantheon and religion founding dates.
     
  5. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    I think people was complaining that they could always grab Stonehenge/Pyramids if they wanted to, when AIs didn't have the capital instant yields.
     
    vyyt and tu_79 like this.
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    There was a long hiatus since the covid. I think it was on january or february.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We reverted it because of higher-level AI performance. The lack of the steroid made it trivial to beeline early wonders and secure desired wonder(s) too reliably.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Something in the middle isn't feasible? Like getting half yields on the settling the capital or something? Not that I care for these deity complainers...
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Haha, I can take the chiding.

    I'd be interested if a half measure if possible. Right now, certain early wonders are just impossible to get and I think its disrupted the balance of tall and peaceful vs wide warmonger.
     
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  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't understand how this affects early wonders that much.

    The AI gets X production on turn 0, but it can't build a wonder on turn 0. It will discover a tech around turn 10, it's impossible to overflow the production all the way until turn 10.

    Also, a human player can still pretty reliably get any of the early wonders by rushing towards it (which isn't necessarily a bad thing balance wise).
     
    InkAxis likes this.
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    How quickly does the diety AI get Stonehenge/Pyramid now? I find on Emperor that my T26 wonder rush (which I can consistently do with the right starts) pretty much guarantees me the wonder I want with the very rare exception of a Washington super rush.

    But I don't consider it imbalanced because it delays my shrine and requires very specific terrain to pull off. I think of it as an opening strategy, not an exploit, and one I only use in a portion of my games.
     
    vyyt and CrazyG like this.
  12. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I play with ruins, so there's some variability. Somewhere between turn 28-32. A turn 28 stonehenge / pyramids is a good bet, but not a guarantee.

    The early wonders that is toughest to get is Great Library and Great Lighthouse (not usually going for this one). I play with ruins and got two free techs, including calendar, but still got nowhere near Great Library, even beelining for it.
     
  13. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Yea it doesn't seem worth the cost to other things just to give AIs a better chance on two wonders when they can generally get any others after those. I would imagine most people would just restart a game if they got beaten to one of those wonders anyways.

    Just out of interest my last game on Large Map, Epic, Deity, Ethiopia built Pyramids on turn 34.... then went and built stonehenge on turn 54!?
     
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  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    With ruins on they occasionally get it super fast, but on average it's around turn like 28 they complete it. Sometimes they go unclaimed until turn 30 (it's quite common for all AI to research pottery as their first tech).

    Bingo! Wonders ought to be used selectively because their hammer cost is enormous.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  15. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    They do? Guess I'll have to check the AI logs when I start a new AI game.
     
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  16. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I actually got Great Library in my most recent game and was completely surprised to do so. The only reason I managed it was because I was Poland and got the free Social Policy. Failing Great Library never strikes me as a tech problem, it strikes me as a Culture problem - I can beeline plenty of techs but I can't create extra Culture out of thin air.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I can get GL pretty solidly on Emperor if I beeline for it. Of course, the trick is I have to have a good science AND culture balance to make it work. So its not something I can just go willy nilly, but if I have the right start, I can get it pretty consistently.
     
  18. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    My usual experience with Great Library is that I will beeline for it - I cannot start building because I still need a full other policy before I can bother, and then 3 turns later it's built anyways.
     
  19. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    It's really amazing the difference between GL completion time and Terracotta time. Imagine how different the Classical game would feel if they were reversed, everyone would be messing around with GL optimal free tech timings.
     
  20. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Yea I mean most of a given wonder's power level on deity is dictated by whether the AIs bother to build it or not. Trying to rush for a wonder like GL is suicide because 90% of the time it will be impossibly early. This can also happen with Terracotta but it's just less likely.
    Stonhenge and Pyramids are still getable but only because the AIs build monument, shrine, worker and settler first and even then they can still have it done before you sometimes.
     

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