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Thoughts on A/B/C bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Milae, May 22, 2020.

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What do you think of A/B/C bonuses?

  1. Like them.

    8 vote(s)
    22.9%
  2. No strong opinion.

    4 vote(s)
    11.4%
  3. Don't like them.

    12 vote(s)
    34.3%
  4. Don't like the production part.

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    It's because of situations like this, which are very frustrating because it feels like there is not correct way to succeed. Its literally the AI difficulty just preventing you from doing something well.
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    So civs with many cities get more production from the same trigger. Maybe giving a fixed amount per civ and then dividing the bonus among their cities (so a civ with more cities don't get more production from the same trigger) would prevent such jumps.

    I mean, get the value from the scaler, then divide by the number of cities and apply the result to every city of the player.
     
    a3kov and InkAxis like this.
  3. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    I just feel like sharing another fun screenshot, all religions founded before or during turn 77 on Deity Standard: (I was due on 83 or 84 I think.) Kind of amazing that a late 70s found wouldn't have even been safe here, the variance is really high. The AI is fast off the bat to religion this patch in a way it really has never been before.

    Spoiler :



    Pantheons:
    India: Home
    Mongols: Hunt
    Siam: Commerce
    Aztec: Expanse
    Arabia: Ancestor Worship
    Ottoman (me): Sun (failed)
    Japan: Earth Mother (failed)
    Carthage: Renewal (failed)
     
    tothePAIN and CrazyG like this.
  4. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Man let's not start the screenshotting. I have seen some serious **** this patch from the AIs and am getting traumatised as we speak. How tf is Siam in every game as well?
     
  5. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    What do you have? I can't read through this censor
     
  6. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    seriously impressive performances:)
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  7. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Yeah, I have the feeling too, that AI is performing much better than usual. May it be some kind of bug that AI gets too much yields?
     
  8. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    All 5 founders have some sort of religious bonus. Of course religions would run out fast.
     
  9. Vhozite

    Vhozite Chieftain

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    This exact situation is why I don’t propose WC projects anymore unless it’s something mandatory for my victory condition like United Nations.

    I’ll never forget when I lost a WC project to my vassal who was way behind in techs, controlled maybe 1/3 my landmass, and had less than half my number of citizens.
     
    Amask likes this.
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    @Gazebo, @Recursive, could someone confirm that the production handicap the AI get increases with the number of cities. Like, a player with 20 cities gets double the production than a player with 10 cities.
    Or is it something else that is causing AI to beat humans when going for projects?
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No # of city scaling, nope.

    G
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Thanks.

    Then it's simply that the handicap is so big at that point of the game in higher difficulties that they can win the projects simply by triggering a couple of times the handicaps, no? It's just an effect of playing at high difficulty, or maybe the scaler is too big late game.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Well...doesn’t every city get the bonus though?

    So in the case of world protects, the AI would get double the bonus wouldn’t it?
     
  14. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    I
    It's definitely from the handicaps being triggered. The numbers the AI puts up in some games are just impossible to explain otherwise.
     
  15. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    The AI gets the production and food bonus in each individual city so in that sense it does scale with number of cities.

    There is no doubt that it is the handicap triggers coming at the correct time for AIs which are giving them the unexpected wins on world projects. Sometimes if they are already close just winning war/starting golden age bonus is enough to get them to the top. However usually it is because of the triple bonus from entering a new era which you can see in your notifications at the side. Unfortunately if you have a normal amount of AI civs there is a decent chance that one of them will enter a new era during the 2-3 turns a project usually takes and they only need a few cities for the bonus to be enough to completely win the project for them. I'm sure every high difficulty player will have experienced this happening multiple times even if they don't know the reason at the time.

    In terms of if the scalar is too big late game. It stays about equal throughout the game. An era bonus by itself is enough to complete a wonder from that era in each individual city on Deity which stays constant throughout.
     
    CrazyG, tu_79 and Rhys DeAnno like this.
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    There's a way to give production to all cities and not have it scale. You take a base value, say 3000, divide by the number of cities, say 10, and distribute the result among the cities, that's 300. Having more cities don't make you gain more production in total. I think G said this is already the case.

    Right then. It is important to know if the culprit of your frustrations is the frequency at which handicaps are earned late game or it is just one of the players changing eras. The second trigger is easier to address.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  17. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Well that isn't the case right now. Each city gets the full bonus.

    And my views on the bonus production bit really haven't changed much since when I made this post. I would rather see the AI bonuses be all cost reduction than bonus yields.

    In terms of early game, I do see that the 30% production cost reduction is not enough on it's own to get the AIs up and running and safe from aggressive players. In the early game the bonuses mostly happen when a new city is created though which I am not really a fan of as I don't see why they should be rewarded for this. Also the AIs pull way ahead in the early game during the settling spree.

    For lategame I actually just don't think the AIs need production bonuses at all anymore. In information era they have a 79% cost reduction for buildings and units. A lot of AIs will end up doing lots on processes as mentioned before and also a lot of these large production bonuses will just go to waste overflow as the things they are trying to build cost much less. This means the main effect of the bonus later on is to complete wonders and world projects which is obviously annoying for players.

    Also as a side point there are some things which the production cost reduction for AIs was excluded from (Wonders and Civilians) because it was seen as unfair if they get these cheaper. However they will often just get them completed by a bonus anyways so it overrides that.

    I would suggest removing bonus production then:

    For early game, increase the production cost reduction to 40/50% (then reduce the scaling for lategame) and make it apply to civilian units as well (what's the point of having these off limits when they get production boosts for them atm anyways.)

    For lategame, give the AIs more of what they actually need which is usually Science. A/B/C bonuses can work for this but I would also suggest tech cost reduction instead as I think it's smoother.
     
    a3kov, CrazyG and Rhys DeAnno like this.
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Do you have any log?
     
  19. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yeah this is my biggest complaint about the bonuses currently. In renaissance some AI just scoops up all the wonders and ends up with functionally infinite production.

    I think the golden age points hurt too, the AI will easily go infinite with them.
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.

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