Thoughts on Imperialistic and Expansive traits?

[Goodgimp]

One of the hardest choices for me on starting a new Civ game is picking a leader, because there are so many personality traits that I like! There are two of them, however, that really have no draw for me whatsover, and they are Imperialistic and Expansive.

(Just as a note, I typically play on Prince/Monarch difficulties, and am more of a Builder type of player than a warmonger)

Both of those traits seem really underpowered to me. While +50% settler production would be nice for a quick expansion, is it really a big deal since you already have an expansion ceiling thanks to city maintenance costs? While the double Great General rate is okay, I don't see them being all that effective.

Same thing holds true for me with Expansive. The workers build a bit faster, that's not too shabby (although it'd be better if it was 50% again ). The extra health has very little appeal to me, however, because I typically don't find myself having health issues. I can usually gain resources and build enough buildings for health, it's usually happiness issues that hold me back on city size.

Now, since the idea of those traits doesn't really attract me, I never play with them. I wanted some opinions from people that have more experience with those two traits than I do. Are they better than they seem, or is the general consensus that one (or both) could use a bit of a boost?

Just curious

 

[snipafist]

Expansive is a decent second-tier trait to compliment a stronger first-tier trait. It means you can afford to industrialize earlier without your people starving due to bad health and that you can settle in the wilderness, far from rivers, without many health problems. The double speed granaries are great for the early game with slavery and the speedy harbors aren't bad either.

Imperialistic, on the other hand, is a dud. I don't much care for it at all. You've correctly realized that the settler bonus is a small perk but largely useless and that the great general emergence is better, but still not amazing. I wish they'd add another ability to it to make warmongering with imperialistic civs more appealing. Less resistance in captured cities? Easier cultural absorption? Less "colonial" maintenance costs? Idunno. It needs something.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, you said yourself that you're not much of a war monger. Imperialistic is much more of a war mongering trait even though it has the cheap settlers. I think that's thrown in so that early game has some kind of advantage (like aggressive has cheap barracks since barracks are cheap in the mid to late game anyway, it is an early game balance bonus). I'm not sure how you have happiness issues and not health issues. Happiness is easily handled with Monarch/hereditary rule. Although, I can see if you have corn / wheat / etc. the granary + aqueduct is a strong health combo for early game. Expansive also has cheap granaries, doesn't it? That helps big time in the early game.

I feel that the Great General bonus for Imperialistic is quite powerful in war mongering games as you will generally get double the GGs as you would for a leader w/o imperialistic. But like you said, you are a builder..

 

[jimbob27]

Yeah, imperialistic is definitely a dud. I've always thought the same of creative as well though. Even if I'm going for a cultural victory, there's at least 3-4 traits that are better than creative.

 

[Elros]

-20% city maintenance might work. Don't think it'd be too unbalanced that way. Although given there's already Organized it would be a bit redundant. It's hard to think what could be done with it.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, imperialistic is definitely a dud. I've always thought the same of creative as well though. Even if I'm going for a cultural victory, there's at least 3-4 traits that are better than creative.

Well, I think people nerf a lot of these traits in their own heads. Cultural is much more powerful even in the most aggressive of games (if you plan on keeping the cities, that is.) City borders will pop immediately almost every time when the city comes out of revolt after capture. In the early game, claiming resources and land is a cinch, especially if Organized/Cultural. The cheap theaters are also crazy sweet for border pops after invasion and rebuffing rival borders to claim more resources.

As to the imperialist, you can end up with something like 8 - 10 great generals instead of 4 - 5 with the imperialistic trait. Imagine 3 cities making tanks in 1 - 2 turns on epic with 3 upgrades at birth. almost too much to handle! But, I agree that the settler bonus is a dud. They need to include some kinda colony discount like 50% less colony costs.

 

[jimbob27]

They could do loads of things to improve it.

Personally I'd like to see great generals given full GP abilities. Ie..... allow them to pop military techs, and be used for golden ages. It'd definitely beef up imperialistic. Some sort of happiness bonus for barracks would be good too. The settler bonus seems pointless...... I wouldn't care if they removed it completely. As somebody already said, you're already restricted on expansion by maintainance far more than by the amount of settlers you can churn out. Anyways...... the bonus only applies for hammers, and not food. You generally get way more production from food early on than you do from settlers, so it's not really a 50% bonus at all. More like 10-20%.

 

[Goodgimp]

Well, you said yourself that you're not much of a war monger. Imperialistic is much more of a war mongering trait even though it has the cheap settlers. I think that's thrown in so that early game has some kind of advantage (like aggressive has cheap barracks since barracks are cheap in the mid to late game anyway, it is an early game balance bonus). I'm not sure how you have happiness issues and not health issues. Happiness is easily handled with Monarch/hereditary rule. Although, I can see if you have corn / wheat / etc. the granary + aqueduct is a strong health combo for early game. Expansive also has cheap granaries, doesn't it? That helps big time in the early game.

I feel that the Great General bonus for Imperialistic is quite powerful in war mongering games as you will generally get double the GGs as you would for a leader w/o imperialistic. But like you said, you are a builder..

Thanks for the reply. While it's true that I generaly am a builder player, I have played several games as a warmonger (either by choice or by circumstances dictating it). I have found in those situations, Aggressive/Protective/Charismatic is far more effective than an extra great general here and there. At least, in my head, like I said I don't pick Imperialistic so I might be wrong

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Protective is pretty weak for war mongering IMHO. You can do just fine with one extra city defender and a counter unit (ie an ax for melee and a spear for mounted). It's a wasted trait IMO.

Aggressive is great for early game since you get that extra melee bonus for axes born in barracked cities, but in the late game (unless you can get level 5 units out of the box) it is rather nerfed as your military cities should be pumping out level 4 units and barracks are quick to build. Some might disagree, but I feel like Organized or Creative are better bets combined with Charismatic which is an amazing war mongering trait.

 

[Terrance888]

I love Charm! It is like with barracks, Theo , vassal and and oerpowered attle... boom! you have a lvl 4 unit! And it also pays dividends to the city with more happy! If Napleon have agressive and Charm..... It would be a total blowout!

 

[bonafide11]

Expansive is a fantastic trait. Extra health in your cities makes a major difference, especially now that power causes -2 health. It's basically +2 food for your cities in the late game, and it has three cheaper buildings - including the most important building in the game, the granary - and cheaper workers!

Imperialist is a good trait that should receive cheaper jails to aid its war weariness.

 

[futurehermit]

Imperialistic needs...something

Expansive is pretty good already, but if it was bumped up to +3 health that would be great. It's definitely not on part with traits like financial/philosophical/charismatic/etc.

Creative is a v. good trait, although it dips in power mid-to-late game. It is one of the best early game traits though, hands down.

Organized is also a v. good trait, but also dips in power mid-to-late game. It is still a good trait early-to-mid game though.

 

[seasnake]

Imperialist needs a slight buff. I think GG's should be like all other great people, if a great spy can start a GA, a GG should be able to as well. I like the double production of jails idea as well.
Those would put Imperialist equally good with the others. I like the settler bonus very much as I will always choose to rush settlers early and then have more cities producing units/research later in the game.

Expansive is just as useful as any other trait. Not weaker, the worker bonus put it on even footing with the rest, the double buildings and health keep you growing for days.

And don't dog Creative. My best score came with Louis XIV because he got cheap wonders, cheap culture buildings and his borders expanded like crazy. I had legendary culture in three cities and won the game (Tours, Paris, Leon).

Every trait is pretty balanced in my opinion with Imperialistic being the weakest, but still good. Again though, double a jail production and buff GG's in general so they are more useful, and I think it'd be fine.

 

[seasnake]

In fact, is there any clever coder how can do that now? I mean, can we go into the game and allow GG's to start GA's and research military technologies? Can we assign the production of a double jail? Do we really have to wait for Firaxis to up the quality of this trait?

 

[bonafide11]

futurehermit: You think Organized is less powerful in the late game? I completely disagree, I think Organized becomes more powerful as the game goes along and your empire grows larger. I almost never play with Organized or Financial though because they make it too easy.

 

[Grimz101]

the great general emergence is just crazy, when you have a tech lead or atleast on par with the top techers, and beeline to chemistry and spam privateers next to all AI cities, they will spam caravels to try to kill them since thats the best they can, and well lots of GG

 

[johnny_rico]

Imperialistic got a huge boost when firaxis decided to nerf seige by disallowing those units to kill when attacking. Under imperialistic, they still generate 2 GG points when attacking and surviving, but the unit is still there to kill for a troop to gain another 2 GG points. Including the GG from Fascism, my current justinian game has yielded a total of 11 GGs. Every land or naval unit starts with minimum of 10 xps.

The settler production works with chopping and facilitates a nice early REX. If maintenance is getting you down, keep those early 6-7 cities at a pop of 1. Use the whip.

Grimz makes a good point as well with the privateers. A chemistry beeline with cause all AIs to spam caravels which get served up to the priates.

I also think organzied is less powerful late game. A couple of hundred gold per turn late game doesn't really affect domination game empires. They simply get too big to feel the hurt of civic costs. Plus, it can be offset nicely with state property, nationhood, and pacifism (throw in free speech or emancipation as well). But that is all for a separate thread.

 

[bovinespy]

I also think organzied is less powerful late game. A couple of hundred gold per turn late game doesn't really affect domination game empires. They simply get too big to feel the hurt of civic costs. Plus, it can be offset nicely with state property, nationhood, and pacifism (throw in free speech or emancipation as well). But that is all for a separate thread.

Two words for you:

cheap factories

 

[Welnic]

...
As to the imperialist, you can end up with something like 8 - 10 great generals instead of 4 - 5 with the imperialistic trait. Imagine 3 cities making tanks in 1 - 2 turns on epic with 3 upgrades at birth. almost too much to handle!
...

If you have enough points to get 5 GGs normally, then you would get 7 with Imperialistic. Because of the increasing costs of GGs, you don't end up with anywhere near twice as many.

 

[peter450]

Indeed this idea people have about getting double the number of GG is just plain wrong, it's normally 2 or 3 more, which is nice, but not really as good a benefit as any of the other traits which all provide powerful bonus's & quicker production on certain buildings.