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Thoughts on negative civ bonuses?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Mr. Salt, Apr 13, 2021.

?

What do you think of negative civ bonuses?

  1. I like these types of civs, and would like if more were added to the game.

  2. I don't really care either way.

  3. I dislike these civs, and would like if they got different abilities.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    Agreed, but I think maluses allow for more direction to a unique playstyle. For example, let's take Mali, a civ we want to go for a gold-based playstyle and largely ignore production. We could just up the gold yields (via trade, tiles, districts, whatever), but the civ would become way too OP before production became ignored. A malus to production allows you to get the desired effect without giving OP yields to entice the desired playstyle.

    While you can get some unique civs without maluses, they are still subtle and often ignored. To get the profoundly unique playstyles, like Babylon, I think maluses are necessary. At least, without making everyone OP in their own way or just abandoning any pretence of balance.
     
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  2. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I like them but I agree that I wouldn't want every civ in the game to have a malus. A few more wouldn't hurt.

    Well not Georgia any more. :mischief:

    The +1 Appeal for adjacent tiles could just go directly to the Mbanza.:)
     
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  3. Piranga

    Piranga Warlord

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    I like them when I play as them. I dislike them when the AI plays as them because they're likely not going to play around the negative well.
     
  4. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Does Babylon really focus on that? I just played my first game with them and still campus spammed to get the great scientist points which is really what they want for late game.
     
  5. Xur

    Xur Prince

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    All pre-set bonuses are bad. Let the player gain or lose them by actions ingame. I’m tired of the rigid “on rails” gameplay.
     
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  6. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, there's ways you can give subtle bonuses without completely copying another civ's abilities. Having Mbanza give +1 appeal is cheap and easy and not any different from theatres or EC which give +appeal.

    Yeah, Babylon still wants to campus-spam, since scientist points are valuable for them. The difference is that since base science is less relevant, they certainly don't need to force them into the best spots, or run Rationalism. I do think that they could potentially use a little more negative, since as mentioned, being able to jump around the tree is still so valuable. They're not balanced, but like Kupe, their bonus/penalty structure is so wildly different from the base game that they make by far a unique playstyle. There's a lot of civs where you can mostly ignore their abilities and still play essentially the same game as normal. Like, I just finished a Gran Colombia game, and while obviously they are super strong, you could in theory play it out completely ignoring their civ abilities, just taking their bonuses as they come, and you're fine. But Babylon? Try to play it 100% like a base game and you're going to be eureka-ing techs that you've part researched, slow-teching pieces because you're not in position to try for the eurekas, and overall just going to have a miserable time at it.
     
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  7. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    The question is why?
    People campus spam for multiple reasons but largely to do with getting tech. That's only half as useful with Babylon, literally. Instead, the idea is either to not bother with campuses (to a large extent) and just focus on those eurekas. That gives you an extra district slot in multiple cities for another focus; IZs for production (would help with many Eurekas) and SVs, TDs for Culture, etc.
    Or you can spam campuses anyway and race ahead with science, although that is, as mentioned before, less efficient becuase they only produce 50% yields for Science. You can use them for GS points for the end, but that means you can delay building campuses, allowing you to have other focuses in the early and midgame, another great advantage. For me, campuses are usually the second district I build in each city, but with Babylon they'd be the last one or two that I build just because I have the space.

    But as with all the maluses, they apply pressure, but they don't force. I could play as Mali and hard build everything. It would be very inefficient, but I can. And if I want to play that way, why not? Still, Mali and Babylon pressure you into gold-based production and Eureka-based tech progression far more effectively than say China does for Wonder building. China has strengths in Wonder building, but it is not as paradigm shifting as Mali and Babylon.
     
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I've never played with Babylon but I believe the idea is to just spam campuses if you want without necessarily worrying about any adjacency bonuses, since you just want the Great Scientist points. That means if you have mountains you can go for that good Holy Site.
     
  9. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Babylon is strange to me. So in the beginning of the game, you really need to focus on getting the eurekas, but if you are going for a science victory, I still think you are going to want to get those campuses up. The great person points are key. Since so many scientists provide eurekas for techs, it can cause Babylon to soar insanely quickly to the end game...and then they suck. Many of the later techs have eurekas that are pretty hard to get if you are flying through the tech tree or they just plain don't have one ( use a GS or spy). So for me, Babylon allowed fast teching in early game, but then I still needed those campuses for late game.
     
  10. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Yeah as with my post above, I really don't see how you can avoid them. Babylon is more like, hey I want to focus on science but I don't need to care about raw numbers much so I don't need policies that increase my science etc...except I still used those anyway late game as I said because their ability really tapers off in the end.
     
  11. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    Seems like Bwbylon isntanywhere near as OP as people claim then. They're OP in the beginning then drop off because they require the same things as everyone else, but can only put it half the Science to do it. Even playing normally, you need to get at least half the Eurekas to make the ability work in your favour, and that's without going out of your way to get Eurekas that you wouldn't have gotten had you played another civ.
     
  12. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Prince

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    I did vote that I like these civs with maluses but not sure we need a lot more of them. Just a few more maybe....

    Mali is the malus I feel the most, hardest to work around. And even with the Work Ethic/Desert Folklore boosting my best holy cities to nice production levels, I still find they work best by building wonders and projects only and pretty much buying everything else. Not the way I play most civs.

    Likewise Maori changes the way I play: I ignore all districts except Harbors, Theatre Squares and Entertainment Complexes. Don't chop, mostly ignore TS adjacencies, settle coasts and rainforests and wonders, and beeline Flight/Conservation. Usually build one nice campus early but get by on Free Inquiry GA (card or dedication) until Zoos and Aquaria which don't add a lot of science but do add to tiles that are already making faith and culture. Reminds me I really need to try them again with the Preserve district, though I'm not sure I'd build that district ahead of the TS or Harbor.

    Portugal seems the most volatile. Like on some maps the Malus will just ruin an other wise beautiful start, and on others that would look challenging the trade routes just overwhelm whatever terrain values are producing.

    Vietnam's district rule is I guess technically a malus but it sure doesn't feel like one most of the time. You can place districts before learning mining/bronze/irrigation. You can have a HS in the rainforest next to a Campus in the woods and so have 2 minor adjacencies from each tile to work with. Because you "have" to leave the woods etc your districts all have huge defensive values and movement bonuses for units. It's only when I try to make a nice dam/AQ/IZ triangle on the floodplains that I feel a sort of "malus" kick in.

    At the same time Poundmaker is still one of my favourites because of well-designed bonuses that synergize. Traders pick up tiles that might or might not snag a resource, but either way you have the mekewap to capitalize on those extra tiles, for example. The Cree kit still gets me to play differently from other civs, but it so rarely OP they don't need a malus. So a civ doesnt have to have a malus to interest me, that's for sure, and the best "malus" designs don't feel like such when you play the civ's bonuses well.
     
  13. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    isn't that the point, though?
     
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  14. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

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    I'm fine with them so long as the civ's pros still outweigh their cons. When you have a handicap, it can be difficult to compete with civs that have straight bonuses.
     
  15. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Prince

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    Indeed I should gush a bit more when I talk about Mali I've had some truly crazy games where I handpick whatever GP I want, but it was always dicey at the beginning when I can't get any units built quickly. So they're at the top of my list for that reason.
     
  16. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

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    In my view, Babylon is nicely balanced if you're going for a science victory, for the reasons discussed in this thread (fly through the early game w/ eurekas, then slow down late-game). However, where they are OP is in domination (and, to a lesser extent, cultural victory if using a tourism-granting improvement and racing to flight). Getting power plants before other civs even have IZs, and getting crossbows in the early ancient era and pike and shot in the classical put you on a nice easy path to domination.
     
  17. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    I generally love asymmetric designs, except for this one, since it either feels completely inconsequential or reduces the competitiveness of the civ to 0, depending on which map you are on. Since there is no way to play around it, there isn't any new or special regarding Portugal's strategy. Just put a city on the coast and send trade routes, and that is it. On water maps, you always have trading partners, so it shouldn't matter there are a few cities you can't trade with.
     
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  18. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    With the naval AI update, that may change. It would be pretty easy to kill Portugal if you can control the seas - they'd only be able to do inland routes implying that they can only do internal, which means little gold.
     
  19. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    I most of the time play multiplayer, and Portugal is pretty much a non-factor if your opponents are very competitive. They are very much like Venice in Civ5, pretty ok in singleplayer, but not that competitive in multiplayer. Team games 4v4 or 6v6 are definitely better since you are guaranteed to be able to send international routes and there are people who can protect you, but FFA games are not great for Portugal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  20. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I was going to say the same thing. Nothing more fun than starving Venice into impotence. I dont think Portugal would be quite as bad but they'd basically be a vanilla civ without their sea routes.

    I like Portugal Mali and Babylon because the malus is greatly outweighed by the bonus. Maybe I could throw Kupe in there too because he can fall backwards into amazing games. With other civs it's mostly just a nuisance. I found Gaul's district rules to be kind of grating and the adj bonus from mines was an even trade at best and the rest of their kit didn't feel strong enough to deserve any negatives. Some of the others left me with a similar feeling.
     
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