Thoughts on Pyramids? And Other Wonder Discussion

[6K Man]

Of course it's good in large empire and if you have the holy city. Religion spreads also if you have Temples, and then from the holy palace, dont need always missionaries. Then one other civ might spread and/or adopt your religion.
Religion spread makes Org Religion effective, or Theocracy.
And religion gives +1 happiness.

That's why Oracle and Stonehenge are of great value, for the generation of the Prophet. So I think Pyramids are secondary.

On a typical map, the early religions will be founded by the AI and if you're lucky, they'll spread to your cities. Founding your own religion is usually counterproductive. And religion won't auto-spread to cities that already have one.

If you want +1 happiness, adopt someone else's religion and get the diplomatic benefits, too. Or run HR and build a 15 Warrior or a 25 Archer, instead of Missionaries.

 

[s.bernbaum]

Strong GS,GM edit: +GSpy
Mediocre GE
Weak GP,GA

That depends on what victory you are pursuing. If you are targetting a Cultural Victory, GA becomes the strongest .

 

[sampsa]

If you are targetting a Cultural Victory, GA becomes the strongest .

Certainly. Also, in different stages of the game it changes a bit. But in general, try to get GS/GM/GSpy. Shrines are massively overrated by players who are still learning.

 

[AcaMetis]

There is one thing that all those weak Great People are really good for, though.

Starting Golden Ages without having to spend (as many) GPs that are actually useful .

 

[Max Duke]

There is one thing that all those weak Great People are really good for, though.

Starting Golden Ages without having to spend (as many) GPs that are actually useful .

Of course, if you dont produce Prophets you gotta spend better GPs for the GAs... that's why Oracle and Stonehenge are good. You better to get one of them before Pyramids.

 

[sampsa]

Of course, if you dont produce Prophets you gotta spend better GPs for the GAs... that's why Oracle and Stonehenge are good. You better to get one of them before Pyramids.

wp sir

 

[Kaiman]

Seems like Pyramids would also increase the value of the Hanging Gardens, since HG raises unhappiness by 1 in all cities without raising happiness to compensate, but if you are running early Representation that hardly matters. You might even be able to use the Great Eng from Pyramids to build the Gardens, no?

 

[Orion Pax]

Seems like Pyramids would also increase the value of the Hanging Gardens, since HG raises unhappiness by 1 in all cities without raising happiness to compensate, but if you are running early Representation that hardly matters. You might even be able to use the Great Eng from Pyramids to build the Gardens, no?

Hanging Gardens definitely has synergy with Pyramids by adding to . But unless you're Philosophical, I'd say most don't get a Great Engineer from the Pyramids in time for HG. Most I think are working Scientists for GSs. So, the HG has more synergy by adding GE points to the Pyramids. Throw in a Forge, and you're slow cooking a GE often in time for Taj Mahal or something. That's common for me when I build the Great Library (frequent), which ends up lapping other GP producers.

 

[Pepo]

What is the general opinion on the religious wonder combo? University of Sankore is placed on a good spot, and could boost research by a good margin, and the minaret can boost you gold per turn significantly. The AP is harder to get imo as Ai seem to like it a lot, but all of three combined can make religious buildings very powerful, but it seems to me that in that moment there are more important priorities.

 

[Fippy]

Divine Right wonders might be okay, but nobody wants to spend those beakers on an otherwise almost useless tech.
So i guess they are built rarely.

UoS can be okay, one of the better average wonders if that makes sense.

 

[s.bernbaum]

If I have stone, I will frequently get the University of Sankore. I find that the boost it gives research quite useful. Since I usually get paper rather early, I can build it long before any of the AIs. However, I should note that I also do not usually pursue either military victory condition. For that reason, I am also building temples and monastaries in most of my cities, particularly those that are on my borders. As a result, UofS gives me a large jump in research. For the same reason, when I can, I will build the minaret. However, since I am not pursuing military victories and, therefore, theology is low priority for me, it is often built by an AI before I get around to it. As for the AP, I let someone else build it and then make whatever religion it is in my religion. That way, I get the advantages without the expense of building it. Since it is normally built long before I get to paper, that works out well. This is at Prince. Since I have decided to play each of the AI leaders on Prince before moving up and I only play a handful of Huge Marathon games in a year, I have been at that for several years.

 

[6K Man]

The problem with the 3* religious wonders is that you have to build Temples and Monasteries to get much value from them. I build Monasteries in 2 or 3 cities, tops, and then they obsolete at SM anyway. Temples, I might build more of... but isn't the idea in this game to build as little infrastructure as possible?

I mean... if I build the SoL, it provides a free specialist in every city on the continent (not just the ones with the right religion) and that specialist will get you 3 or 3 per turn, plus GPP, and you don't need to build anything else to get that benefit (if in Caste). And SoL doesn't obsolete. Sure, it costs more to build, but it seems soo much better.

* Angkor Wat is kind of a religious Wonder, but crappy in a different way.

 

[dankok8]

The only time I build lots of religious buildings is when I pursue cultural victory. At that point UofS is hardly useful because I turn off the research slider at Liberalism and don't care to research anymore. I would suspect the Spiral Minaret could be useful though because it would let me run the culture slider a bit higher. That being said, probably wouldn't make a huge difference because in culture games I rarely have a lot of cities so my slider is typically sustainable at 80-90% anyways.

Certain leaders like Ram/Hatty/Sal can run a pretty great Priest economy with Angkor Wat and you can settle the popped GP's for some serious gold. As far as settled specialists go, GP's might be the best with +2 and +5 ... With Rep you add +3 as well. It's actually a strategy I've been meaning to test on Immortal difficulty.

 

[Pepo]

More or less my line of thinking then. I get UoS if I can get it easily, but the rest of then seem to be at techs that aren't a priority. At least on paper the bonus seems to be strong, but it doesn't seem strong enough to base all your strategy on it.

As for Angkor wat I honestly think that it is one of the weakest early wonders. I don't really think that running priest as a specialist is a good idea and getting a GP has always seem to be a waste except for GA.

Ps: I also forget the StC as it also boost religious buildings cultures, but it has always seem to me as a non-brainer wonder for cultural victories and a zero priority for any other type of victory.

 

[Fish Man]

Divine Right wonders might be okay, but nobody wants to spend those beakers on an otherwise almost useless tech.
So i guess they are built rarely.

UoS can be okay, one of the better average wonders if that makes sense.

Problem with UoS is that, once you get paper, you are usually only 25-30 turns away from getting cuirs. In which case you want to be building forges and barracks and stables in preparation for whipping a doomstack. Also, Taj comes not far after and is a vastly more preferable build, assuming you have both wonder resources.

 

[Pangaea]

Like all wonders not named Oracle or Hanging Gardens, it's best to capture it

 

[Fippy]

Failgold might be the best use for UoS

 

[Lennier]

Like all wonders not named Oracle or Hanging Gardens, it's best to capture it

Or Taj Mahal.

 

[MilesBeyond]

UoS and Spiral Minaret both provide bonuses that are just way too slight for that point in the game, IMHO. Like UoS is generally going to be 4 beakers/city, 6 in every third city, and that's if you build Temples, Monasteries, and Cathedrals everywhere - a major hammer investment even for SPI civs. Like that's so many hammers for so little science.

IMHO both wonders would be better if they worked like Sistine Chapel: in addition to +2 beakers/gold per state religion building, it added +2 beakers/gold from specialists. That'd be a lot more attractive for big SEs. Still might not necessarily be something you'd necessarily want to build, but it'd at least be something that had a noticeable impact if you captured it.

Really I think the biggest problem with wonders in Civ IV is scaling - with every era their hammer cost increases, and by the Medieval era there are just so few wonders worth their production cost, and it only gets worse from there. The other problem is effect - they just aren't strong enough to justify it. And I'm not even just talking in terms of relative effect - i.e. Ancient wonders having the strongest effect because they're in play the longest and influence the most impactful part of the game. I mean on an absolute level, just comparing raw bonuses and nothing else, many late game wonders are kind of unimpressive.

IMHO the game could do with a flat reduction to wonder cost across the board - that would make more wonders worth building, and the ones that still aren't worth building would at least not eat up as many of the AI's hammers.

 

[elitetroops]

Haven't built UoS in a long time, but last time I did I was surprised to lose bonus beakers for monasteries at SciMeth when they obsolete. UoS and especially SM would have a very short window to boost monasteries in a serious teching game.