Three Women Found After Being Abducted Over 10 Years Ago

I think there is some bias, maybe if their families aren't pressuring the police or the police just don't care, but I think there are other factors why the police would not be as involved. Their lifestyles may make it harder to get leads and offer a lot of other alternatives for why they are missing.
Oh, please. This has been huge news in Canada, and it was eventually revealed that many of the cops tasked with investigating all these disappearances and the leads they had on Pickton simply either did little or nothing, let the files pile up unread, sat around laughing and joking about it... it was a female RCMP officer who blew the whistle on this, and now there's an investigation into the cops themselves. The Pickton murders - 49 of them that we know of! (Pickton got caught before reaching his self-admitted goal of 50) - happened over many years, and many of those 49 women wouldn't have been killed if the cops had done their jobs right.

Many male RCMP officers have this attitude toward aboriginal women - they do not matter. They should just stay on the reserves and not come into the cities and wind up impoverised, should not get themselves addicted to drugs, start hooking to get money, be abused by their pimps, dealers, and other men in their lives. They have a strong tendency to blame the victim. This is an attitude that is prevalent in British Columbia, and there are other areas of the country where it goes on as well.

And yes the families damn well are pressuring the cops. They either get ignored or handed a line of "yes, we're working on it" and it's just a lie.
 
Rape could effectively end tomorrow in the US penal system, as it has in actual civilized modern countries.

But the far-right authoritarian light bulb has to want to change.
1) Your chart doesn't support the thesis of your post.

2) I don't think you actually know what far right actually means.
 
Ironically, prison rape in the US is largely condoned because many "law and order" advocates think it is part of the punishment which they deserve.

I just love you logic. Prison rape happens. "Law and Order Types" see prison as a place where prisoners deserve to be punished. Therefore "Law and Order Types" approve of Prison rape. Wonderful logic I must say. Only in your mind does such thinking seem to work.
 
DinoDoc said:
Authority does not necessarily equal law and order type unless you are actually saying that condoning criminal activity of any stripe within a prison is conducive to the fostering of either law or order within the correctional environment.

Your grasp of language seems tenuous at best, judging by this word salad you've so graciously tosses for me. I'll attempt to pick out the figs and croutons, nevertheless: are you suggesting that if the people most singlehandedly responsible for prisons and the prison system are irrelevant to the practices of the prison system? If anything it seems like they'd be the vanguards, and if not them then nobody, and we know for a fact that they condone this illegal behavior on a widespread basis. So once again I fail to see what defense "law-and-order" types can muster in lieu of the knowledge that the structure they support so vociferously is the structure most tolerant of this behavior they're supposed to be against.
 
I just love you logic. Prison rape happens. "Law and Order Types" see prison as a place where prisoners deserve to be punished. Therefore "Law and Order Types" approve of Prison rape. Wonderful logic I must say. Only in your mind does such thinking seem to work.
I am only repeating comments made in this very forum, as well as elsewhere. I even documented that it is still pervasive in our prisons.

What "wonderful logic" for freedom of speech to again clearly triumph to the detriment of "law and order" hypocrites who actually do clearly espouse such reprehensible "logic".

Dehumanization and Punishment

Glenn Reynolds linked to a video of a NYC cop who “threatens a man taking cell phone video with arrest.” This picks up the attention given here and here to the question of law enforcement and ‘citizen photojournalism.’

But what really struck me about this story was the threat attributed to the (apparent) cop, who said, “Guys in jail are going to rape you.”

This is beyond the pale in myriad ways. Reynolds points out in an update that “when you have a badge and a gun you should behave better than the average schmuck, rather than having a license to be a jerk.” Public persons, like law enforcement officials, have a higher standard of conduct than private individuals.

Judge Mathis: Prison Rape Is Part Of The Game

Judge Mathis has become a household name since the release of his autobiography "Inner City Miracle." In the book co-written by Blair Walker, Mathis speaks about growing up in the inner city and his membership in a gang. From this horrible beginning he rose to become the youngest judge ever in state of Michigan. He can be seen regularly on television dishing out his special brand of justice on the Judge Mathis show.

On several occasions I have watched his show only to notice the various times he engages in sexism and classism to push his pull yourself up by the bootstraps ideology. While Mathis embodies the conservative dream come true, he is not afraid to send harmful messages in an effort to prove that everyone can achieve positive mobility if they just follow his leadership.

His latest attempt at corralling the “little people” is a new video game entitled, Street Judge.


"The main difference between our game and Grand Theft Auto is that players will have to deal with the justice system and consequences for their actions," explains Mathis. "When you go to prison, you gain credibility when you come back on the streets. On the other hand, when you go to prison you can also be raped. So take your chances. We may see young people who make the wrong choice and go to prison and are assaulted repeatedly (in this game)."

Where to even begin with this misadventure. The idea that rape should be included as part of entertainment is distasteful to say the least. Yes, prison rape occurs but it is something that we should be fighting against not normalizing as part of the penal experience. Telling people that if you go to prison that part of your punishment is rape turns the victim in the guilty party. No matter what heinous crime someone has committed rape should never be justified as part of the punishment.

I wonder if Mathis thought for a moment about how the image of repeated rape as part of entertainment would trigger and effect victims?

“The game will supposedly give gamers "the choice between good and bad through in-game video sequences and narration, [and] the Judge will be the source of reason for gamers."

What does this teach us but that we are responsible for our own assaults. Does society not do enough victim blaming, without setting up a game which teaches that if you make the “right decisions” you can avoid rape? I shudder to think of the young girls playing this game whose behaviour is already disciplined, once again learning that their safety is dependent upon choices that they make and not a society that is committed to declaring unequivocally that sexual violence is unacceptable.

When the Attorney General of Alaska can state, “If a guy can’t rape his wife…who’s he gonna rape?” How can there be any doubt that we live in a rape culture.

Not every thing is fit for entertainment. Mathis is attempting to teach that there are alternatives to crime and yet in the game, the punishment for not performing is a crime. How did he miss the irony of that one? No matter where a person is, it is not legal to violate their physical person by assaulting them. Rape is not about punishing someone rape is about expressing power over another individual.

People will consume this game and talk about the message that crime does not pay without ever realizing that it reinforces the rape culture that we currently live in. Whether it in movies, video games, books or magazine daily we are shown images of rape that minimize the damage that it causes. It is continually justified as humour, or legitimated as a response to the behaviour of the victim seldom is the blame ever placed upon the rapist. If Mathis really wanted to teach about crime perhaps he should start with the premise that it is never the fault of the victim and that there is never any justification for rape.
 
Ad hominems and specious logic I'm somehow expected to take seriously.
Simply because someone is in charge of a correctional institution doesn't make them a law and order type as the activity at issue here is illegal and not conducive to good order within the institution. Bullies come in alot of political stripes after all.
 
DinoDoc said:
Simply because someone is in charge of a correctional institution doesn't make them a law and order type as the activity at issue here is illegal and not conducive to good order within the institution. Bullies come in alot of political stripes after all.

Simply calling logic "specious" does not make it so, but if you aren't interested in thinking critically that's your own lookout.
 
I just love you logic. Prison rape happens. "Law and Order Types" see prison as a place where prisoners deserve to be punished. Therefore "Law and Order Types" approve of Prison rape. Wonderful logic I must say. Only in your mind does such thinking seem to work.
Or freerepublic
 
Simply calling logic "specious" does not make it so, but if you aren't interested in thinking critically that's your own lookout.
I'm uninterested in getting involved in a serious discussion with someone who's 1st resort is to go to the well spring of ad hominem when I haven't insulted his intelligence (despite being tempted to do so) nor has he actually made a serious argument that someone who values law and order is bound to support the commission of criminal activity within the areas of their responsibility.
 
Simply calling logic "specious" does not make it so, but if you aren't interested in thinking critically that's your own lookout.
Or merely read the articles which I have posted.

I'm uninterested in getting involved in a serious discussion with someone who's 1st resort is to go to the well spring of ad hominem when I haven't insulted his intelligence (despite being tempted to do so) nor has he actually made a serious argument that someone who values law and order is bound to support the commission of criminal activity within the areas of their responsibility.
Speaking of the articles I have posted which you haven't been able to dispute any of the facts presented in them so far, I'm sure it is just sheer coincidence that prison rape is an out-of-control activity which is actually coordinated and controlled by many guards to get revenge on specific inmates for breaking their rules, unlike most any other modern civilized country on the planet. That it is actually the guards in the female prisons who rape the inmates instead of the other inmates. That this occurs with an estimated 200,000 inmates every single year. That due to the risk of HIV infection and general lack of medical care, this is essentially a long-term death sentence for many of them. That despite this clearly reprehensible problem being well known for decades, little or nothing is done to correct it by supposed "law and order" advocates.
 
A little tuff of hair on an old womens chin is not a complete abandonment of standards of appearance.

From NHS



http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hirsutism/Pages/introduction.aspx

You mention reasons for why older women may have facial hair, that doesn't prevent them from removing it. When someone completely lets herself go and stops applying basic grooming standards it's often, but not always, a sign of an "off" mental state.

Oh, please. This has been huge news in Canada, and it was eventually revealed that many of the cops tasked with investigating all these disappearances and the leads they had on Pickton simply either did little or nothing, let the files pile up unread, sat around laughing and joking about it... it was a female RCMP officer who blew the whistle on this, and now there's an investigation into the cops themselves. The Pickton murders - 49 of them that we know of! (Pickton got caught before reaching his self-admitted goal of 50) - happened over many years, and many of those 49 women wouldn't have been killed if the cops had done their jobs right.

Many male RCMP officers have this attitude toward aboriginal women - they do not matter. They should just stay on the reserves and not come into the cities and wind up impoverised, should not get themselves addicted to drugs, start hooking to get money, be abused by their pimps, dealers, and other men in their lives. They have a strong tendency to blame the victim. This is an attitude that is prevalent in British Columbia, and there are other areas of the country where it goes on as well.

And yes the families damn well are pressuring the cops. They either get ignored or handed a line of "yes, we're working on it" and it's just a lie.

You're focusing on this issue in Canada which you're obviously very passionate about. That doesn't change the fact that a street person/prostitute is going to have a lifestyle that would likely make it more difficult to find her and provides for numerous other reasons for her disappearance. It doesn't justify always jumping to the racism class prejudice idea. In this case in Cleveland, it doesn't look like anything would have happened, even after 10 years, except the girl managed to escape.
 
What happened in Canada, happened in a different country. I don't see why we are even comparing the two. These girls (except possibly Knight since she was an adult when abducted) weren't treated as "possible prostitutes that nobody cares about". The FBI was called in to investigate the case and the two missing teens were covered on Americas Most wanted for several years.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...nd_captive_is_refusing_to_see_her_family.html

Apparently one of the victims is having some issues with her family, it's hard to say but it looks like she's distancing herself from them. In the comments section it mentions there may have been an abusive situation when she was living with her family before. There's a photo of the grandmother which looks pretty frightening. If that's true, it's really sad that she went from one abusive situation to another and doesn't have a caring family to fall back on.

We don't know yet why she is distancing herself from them. There's other reasons she could be not speaking to them. Maybe she blames them somehow for her getting into the situation she was in, maybe she blames them for not actively searching for her like the other two victim's families were, etc.

I have read somewhere that the grandmother said that Knight was gang raped in junior high, gave birth to a boy and then lost custody of the boy. If they were unsupportive of her after that incident, she would probably feel they wouldn't be supportive after this incident as well.

Or maybe the gang rape didn't happen and it was a bogus story to cover up that another relative actually impregnated her? The grandmother's story didn't quite match up with the details (was raped in junior high, and it happened only a year before she was kidnapped, but she was kidnapped at age 20). Unless there was a misunderstanding and what she meant was that losing custody didn't happen until age 19.
 
It mentioned in the comments section of the slate article I posted that she lost custody because her mother's, the child's grandmother's boyfriend broke the child's arm, but that wasn't backed by any story so don't know if it's true.
 
You're focusing on this issue in Canada which you're obviously very passionate about. That doesn't change the fact that a street person/prostitute is going to have a lifestyle that would likely make it more difficult to find her and provides for numerous other reasons for her disappearance. It doesn't justify always jumping to the racism class prejudice idea. In this case in Cleveland, it doesn't look like anything would have happened, even after 10 years, except the girl managed to escape.
My point is that it should not matter what the missing woman's lifestyle is - the cops should do everything they can, follow up EVERY lead people give them, and not shrug any of it off.

Yes, prostitutes' lifestyles are dangerous. Yes, their disappearances are more difficult to investigate. My point is that the cops here never even tried, for the most part. And when they were given leads, they failed to follow up on them.

Ditto for the cops in these women's case. They failed to follow up on leads. That is inexcusable.
 
It shouldn't matter but it does make it more difficult, that's what I was pointing out. Even if people don't have a callous disregard for their disappearance.
 
It shouldn't matter but it does make it more difficult, that's what I was pointing out. Even if people don't have a callous disregard for their disappearance.
I would like to reply to the point you edited out of your post.

How would a cop know a lead was bad unless he bothered to check it out?
 
If the neighbors did call the cops on Castro (there is some doubt as to whether some or any of the calls were made) it was "This seems strange", not "I think the missing girls are being held by this guy", so these calls would not be 'leads' that most people would think of.
 
I would like to reply to the point you edited out of your post.

How would a cop know a lead was bad unless he bothered to check it out?

If you really want to ask about something I ended up not posting in the end - The biggest reason I can think of is time, particularly a high profile case where there may be hundreds of people calling thinking they have pertinent information. Another reason could be a certain amount of disorganization where people didn't pass on the information, this occurs even in high profile cases, not just instances no one cares about.

I edited this post too, I edit a lot for various reasons. Anyway, that post I edited seconds after finishing it so I'm a bit surprised you're raising this issue.
 
Here is a very interesting article from Slate on this topic:

In a Plain Dealer column yesterday, Mark Naymik writes that the disappearances of DeJesus and Berry, at least, were a longtime department priority. “I've seen police follow up on the most tenuous of leads, from teenagers too young to remember DeJesus' disappearance.” Other reports bear this out: For example, the cops dug up a vacant lot in 2012 after a convict falsely informed them that Berry’s body could be found there.

But Naymik makes another great point that I haven’t seen cited elsewhere. “At the moment, the hum of criticism on Seymour Avenue is about the subtle signs, such as the lowered shades or odd behavior of Castro and how he never entertained guests,” he writes. “These are the kinds of signs that police officers who patrol a specific beat over time might notice or hear about from neighbors. But that kind of patrol disappeared when community policing ended.”

That kind of patrol disappeared when community policing ended—that’s the line you should remember if you’re looking to criticize the cops here. Intuition is one of a police officer’s foremost assets. But missing persons and odd behavior become suspicious only when you are intimately familiar with a neighborhood, with what normalcy means and when normalcy is breached.

In Cleveland and elsewhere, that sort of hyperlocal knowledge is on the wane. Despite a high crime rate, the city, facing budget shortfalls, has laid off police officers and downsized the department over the past decade. As the president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association wrote in a letter to the Plain Dealer in 2010, “The Cleveland Police Department has never recovered from the 2004 downsizing of 252 police officers. We have been working with no Auto Theft, Community Policing or Gang units.”

All of the criticisms over police behavior in this case are actually criticisms of the do-more-with-less modern policing mentality—of the disappearance of the beat cop in favor of specialized units that are ostensibly more effective and efficient. And they might be more effective and efficient when it comes to dropping a city’s crime rate over the short term. But the fact that Michelle Knight, Amanda Berry, and Gina DeJesus spent years in a house in a dense Cleveland neighborhood is one indication of the long-term problems with this approach.

In the end, the Cleveland police and its critics are both right. The cops likely did all they could to sniff out where the missing women were being held. But in this age of departmental budget cuts, all they could do wasn’t nearly enough.
 
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