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Tier 4 governments are worse than Tier 3 governments?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by RoboEmperor, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Chieftain

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    Fascism's +5 strength is huge.
    Communism's +10% science is huge.

    The tier 4 government's bonuses..... +3 power, +amenities, they seem vastly inferior to the tier 3s. Am I wrong?
     
  2. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    For my taste this has ceased to be an issue since T4 governments have been buffed to having two extra policy card slots over the T3 ones.
     
  3. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Tier 4 govs are for the final push to victory instead of making your city building game strong... if you haven't won by the time those civic arrive, then they are something for you. By the time those arrive you should be close to victory so science is kinda irrelevant. And even to fight... by that time you should throw nuclear bombs at each other instead of looking at +5 strength. And there is one gov which gives +30% to city projects so you can win science or build nuclear weapons faster.
     
  4. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, I think especially dramatic ages those extra WC slots will go a long way since you can slot in more legacy cards too. I'd agree it's a much smaller gap than any other change in government, but it's still worth it to upgrade usually.
     
  5. japanesesamurai

    japanesesamurai Prince

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    Isn’t Suffrage with Arsenal of Democracy way better than +30% to projects? Assuming you have at least a dozen of trade routes going to an ally.
    12 routes = 48 production boost. (+48 food boost)
    The other space port cities might suffer a bit, but I think it at least equals out. And of course those others you can finish with workers
    I dont know I usually go with Suffrage and stick with it. Changing government to T4 always mess up my production/food
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  6. Chekko

    Chekko Warlord

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    I understand Digital Democracy, you want to be passive and you get some nice bonuses that benefits all of your cities. But getting the penalties on the other two are weird. I think the -10% science is too much of a penalty on a government that benefits military focus, where science is pretty useful. And the science one only focuses on very late game Science Victory stuff where the penalty is something you'd never care about anyway if you focused on Science victory in the late game.
     
  7. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    No, Synthetic Technocracy is a straight upgrade over Democracy for science victories and avoiding it is a mistake. You can run the democratic legacy policy to get the food and production boost to trade routes, while still getting +30% production to projects (this also stacks on top of the trade route production). +3 power to cities is also pretty nice.

    Corporate Libertarianism is utter crap though. At that stage, -10% science far outweighs the benefits of +10 or 20% production. Just stick in fascism.
     
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  8. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    When you build your tier 3 government plaza building as a Democracy you get a legacy card that gives the same bonusses for traderoutes with allies when you switch to a tier 4 government.
     
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  9. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Tier 4 is better because of legacy cards. The only one that’s not straight up better in every way is fascism-> corporate libertarianism because -10% science sucks and they nerfed the bonus before release. (It was +15% instead of +10%. Technocracy was buffed, it used to be +2 power.)
    But I’d rather have general hammers and a resource extraction bonus than slightly more unit production. You can generate a lot of resources with libertarians, which outstrips fascism pretty aggressively. For example: more air units and tanks.
    Technocracy needs a nerf. 3 power = 1 free powered building per city, but +30% to projects is just stupidly strong. -10% tourism doesn’t matter. It should be -10% culture to be on par with the other two.

    If communism offered a generic production per citizen for all cities I would feel different, but restricted to governors it’s pretty tough to make the math work for even a moderate empire size (say 12 cities.)
    I actually really hate Democracy’s current design, it’s just waaaaay to feast or famine. If you have an alliance it’s better than every government, otherwise it’s useless. I also have opinions about t3 cars distribution I won’t go into here...
    But the number of wildcards in t4 just makes them so much better.
     
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  10. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Chieftain

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    It does. Collectivization is very strong.

    Ok, from what I can tell, Corporate Libertarianism is better than Fascism because GDRs don't benefit from the +5 str. So the resource extraction lets you get more GDRs than normal.

    So yeah, I'm seeing a plan here. Communism until all GDR techs are researched. Then switch. With Automaton Warfare golden age bonus you get 5 uranium per source.
     
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, democracy with an ally is just stupid OP, especially if you're up to a T2 or more alliance and you're getting even crazier trade route bonuses. But if you have no allies, then it means nothing.

    I mean, I kind of like it in that if you're at all playing a peaceful game, then you virtually have to run democracy, but if you're already a world pariah, then Fascism or Communism make more sense - in that sense it's well designed. And even if you're not allied, it can be worth it for the gold purchase and unlocking New Deal, but if you have an ally it's stupid strong.
     
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  12. japanesesamurai

    japanesesamurai Prince

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    Yes Suffrage seems super OP indeed. That’s ptobably why I always pick it. :p Get a neighbour ally. Buy 4 sewers, pick suffrage, win.
    Usually, by the time I can pick a T4 government, I am so close to winning, that changing the government and reconfigure cards is not much needed anymore.
    This might all be different for a non-scientific victory of course.
    If I’m in lot’s of wars, my brain would possibly pick Fascism without looking at the actual benefits ;) Fascism and robots. Now
     
  13. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Corporate Libertarianism's greatest benefit is being able to get +1 resource per strategic resource node. With the way maintenance works for most units that late in the game, access to strategic resources acts as a soft cap on what one can field, and being able to get more strategics per turn means being able to field more units. It also means being able to field more power plants, which can further increase the productivity of one's empire. I do wish they kept the +15% production (instead of +10%) per Encampment and Commercial Hub in each city.

    The science malus is not great, but one shouldn't be going for a science victory with Corp Lib (hint: Synthetic Technocracy is that-a-way). Corp Lib is likely best tailored to domination victory, and by that point one should already have access to planes and GDRs, so science doesn't matter as much. If one were running Fascism previously, then one can slot in the Fascism legacy card with Corp Lib in order to field more units AND have more punch per unit.

    A separate thing, but I wish each of the T4s had their own legacy card too, just to see what they'd be like. Instead of unlocking them from Government Plaza buildings, one would just need to have ran the T4 for at least one turn.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
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  14. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Well, yes, generally T3 governments are better in government bonuses. The 10% science doesn't go with legacy card, you have to use communism.

    T4 governments don't have good government bonuses, they just provide you a lot of wild card slots and you can slot your own policies there.
     
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  15. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    You can only slot New Deal while using the Democracy government. And that really annoys me. Losing 4 housing and 2 amenities when switching to a tier 4 government is just stupid. Hence I simply never use that card even though I almost always go for Democracy.
     
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  16. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Yes, this seems like a classic example of a clear oversight. When the idea of government-locked cards were introduced, tier 3 governments were the highest tier. Then they introduced tier 4 governments, but didn't think about doing something about those cards. The clear an obvious solution would be that unlocking Democratic Legacy also allows you to use New Deal, even when you switch to tier 4. If that's too complicated, allow the tier 4 governments to inherit the locked card of their equivalent previous government (i.e. digital democracy allows same card as democracy). Doing nothing seems either sloppy or lazy.
     
  17. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I like the Tier 3 governments better, but the extra policy cards in the Tier 4 governments more than offset that.
     
  18. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    You should still use it. The idea is to cap your population in your big cities before switching to tier 4 governments. You do not lose the extra population when you switch governments, after all.
     
  19. oPunchDrunko

    oPunchDrunko Prince

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    Just curious, is there a penalty for having an overpopulated city? Or cities in this case since you will lose 4 housing for all your cities.

    Also, wouldn’t losing 2 amenities hurt in a lot of your cities unless you have some way of keeping your cities in positive amenity?
     
  20. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Not really. Your city will just not grow, but as it is already over the cap...

    As for the amenities, Digital Democracy has them built in, and Synthetic Technocracy can easily compensate for it. Or just build the Stadio de Maracana.
     

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