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[BTS] Tier List Of Traits?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fish Man, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Here's my opinion of what traits are better than others (within the tiers there's no clear ranking).

    A-tier, AWESOME to the point where they're game-changing in more than a few circumstances:

    Financial
    This one is self-explanatory; an economy is basically half of how you get things done in civ, the other half being production (mainly driven by chops/whips, hence why food is king; unfortunately there is no trait that enhances growth), and financial directly and significantly helps in that regard. A lot. Something to consider about this trait that not many others might have thought about is the fact that its impact is felt predominantly in the early game, and its effect is stronger there than most might regard. +1 commerce on 2-commerce tiles (there will be few tiles giving higher than that except for mining resources until calendar or you grow your cottages) is essentially +50% commerce. Think about that. 50% is a HUGE bonus. If the only tiles your capital worked for commerce was cottages and coast, this would be like having a free academy for 10 turns, with the relative effect staying but diminishing afterwards. And this applies for EVERY city, everywhere. +1 in the context of 2 is why financial is so good.

    Philosophical
    Also self-explanatory; GP are how you execute deity-level strategies like bulbing lib to get MT or chem to get steel while everyone's running around with longbows, directly helping you win the game. As well as well-timed golden-ages to churn out a GM or 3, switch civics, etc. Phi directly helps you in reaching those goals in a timely and decisive manner (you don't have to worry as much about GP pollution since "fewer" GP points can be used to obtain a greater effect, meaning you can afford to run "just" scientists and merchants), meaning it is on-par with fin in a lot of cases, if not outright better. Plus cheaper universities are nice for fast space wins, but I know not everyone cares about that :).

    B-tier, GREAT but nothing gamebreaking, can turn losses into wins in quite in a few circumstances, but universally make the game significantly easier:

    Charismatic
    You only get 4 happiness in early-game. So +2, again effectively +50%, is a REALLY big deal. This can turn the tide of an isolation game, where otherwise a needed detour to monarchy is so expensive it puts you too behind. The other big deal is cheaper promotions, which shortens several "critical points" - making getting CR2 on siege 1 battle away after barracks, combat 3 on mounted obtainable with barracks + stables + theo + vassalage, and CR3/march/all the good high-level promos much easier. Usually a "quality of life" thing, but sometimes attacking someone who's about to run away with the game or who already has a better or bigger army, this type of thing makes all the difference. This is actually my fave trait on iso, since those two situations - terrible happy cap and being forced to attack stronger opponents, some on the brink of getting the Big Three nasty industrial era units (infantry, machine guns, artillery) - pop up especially often on iso maps. In my experience a 6-happy cap at minimum is needed to reach optics in a timely manner in iso, meaning with cha you don't ever need to go monarchy if you're alone.

    Industrious
    I'll admit, this trait IS a bit hard to leverage. However, I consider it really good because it halves the cost of the most expensive of the essential buildings of the game (forge, the others being granary and library), gets you 1.5x more failgold which is huge if you can leverage it right, AND makes going for wonders without the resource viable. Marble-less GLib, GLighthouse, stoneless Mids, and ofc Marble-less Oracle (though the latter's pretty cheap anyways) are the ones that come to mind. This makes the trait hugely versatile, and in fact I'm of the belief that despite the many other things that make HC OP, ind is one of the major contributing factors. And if it DOES help you get that game-changing wonder once in a while where you otherwise wouldn't have, it is gamechanging once in while.

    Creative
    Effectively a free border pop early game is HUGELY helpful, and so are cheap libraries. That being said, without cre there are still plenty of ways to reach 10 culture, libraries are still pretty cheap whips compared to, say, forges (2 or 3 pop), and it's rare that you need the extra speed and border pressure to really win. Still, those situations do come up - most notably the recent low sea level Pericles map where we had to muster all our cultural might just to fight back Sally's stupid madrasas and holy city culture.

    C-tier, GOOD but overwhelmingly just quality-of-life things that are a "win harder" factor; can't really turn a loss into a win on a crappy start all by themselves 99% of the time:

    Expansive
    I know, I know @sampsa - this is heresy. But consider this: granaries and workers are already easy 2-pop whips, some of the cheapest things to churn out despite being the most important. And +2 health is, I think you would concur, mostly irrelevant for most of the game. Besides, worker production is only sped up +25%, which means that if you whip those really the only effect is a bit more OF. There's hardly a case where getting a worker or granary out slightly faster tips the balance decisively in our favor, nice as those things may be. So while there's nothing wrong with expansive, it's still not really as impactful as I think a lot of other traits are.

    Imperialistic
    Same applies to settlers. 2-pop whip instead of 3-pop whip, horray. Unless you're desperately competing with Justinian for city sites, though, it's hard to see how this would be THAT useful. Sure, snowball effect, but at the same time there's absolutely nothing else here that would increase the output of that second city significantly, like most other traits. And faster GGs - good for turbocharging axes/HAs during an early rush. Otherwise, a slightly faster medic is the only benefit of this, after which all other GGs can be settled or turned into secondary medics/sacrificial steamrollers regardless of how fast they come.

    Organized
    The civic upkeep reduction is not insignificant, especially as the game progresses - and the faster building of 3 quite important buildings is definitely really good. But those 3 buildings come into play only situationally (some games I don't build a single courthouse, other games don't even last into the industrial era so definitely no factories). And smaller civic upkeep essentially means reaching key techs 2-3 turns faster, MAX. So, not really a zinger to me. I WILL concede this is the 2nd best trait to have, perhaps, on deity marathon corps space games - an incredibly niche category, though.

    Spiritual (EDIT: I forgot this)
    Certainly a handy trait to have, and can make things significantly less painful with the diplo, but that's honestly the main benefit. Civic changes from non-demands are usually timed with golden ages or each other, with the possible exception of quickswitching between caste and slavery to churn out more GP (which again, becomes quickly less useful than it seems because more GP require more GPP, which requires longer time in caste, taking away from precious turns that could be spent whipping. It MIGHT have saved my butt once or twice with demands - but -1 for a bit isn't that much to take, unless you're on the border of pleased and cautious, I guess.

    Aggressive
    The much-maligned agg is actually far better than it looks on paper. Fast barracks solidifies early rushes, as does a free promo on some units. And it's GREAT for barb-killing and fogbusting, tipping the odds of a forested warrior vs archer from 44% to 64%-ish (again my numbers may be off). And it's better than cha sometimes, since it saves however much XP is needed for the NEXT promo. Still - this only applies for the less important units of a rush (anything EXCEPT the siege and mounted, go figure), and barracks are cheap anyways. Plus you can always go early AH/archery or just find copper to neutralize barbs. So, again, quality of life thing.

    D-tier, BAD; offers little to no help the overwhelming majority of the time and in terms of opportunity cost prevents an actually good bonus from being there:

    Protective
    You knew this was coming. @Lain demonstrated an instance where it was insanely helpful, and there ARE other cases like China's Chu-ko-spam or Toku's superrifles, but honestly, at the end of the day, how often are you gonna be stuck semi-iso with Genghis?

    So what do you guys think? Any disagreements? If so, I'd love to hear your opinions. But this is how I think of the traits for now. Change my mind!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    You forgot spiritual. Personally I like CRE and EXP more than you (CRE a-tier and EXP b-tier). IND and CHA slightly less, I guess. Overall I do like your analysis a lot. :)

    Main virtue of EXP is often a faster 1st worker and half priced granary, which is not always valuable of course, depending on the availability of :)-resources. +2:health: is not very impactful, but sometimes allows resource gifting/trading. I'm not as in love with forges as many others are. Certainly a 60:hammers: forge is a great building though, which is a big boost for IND.

    There are also several factors to take into account when making such a list. Are we assuming deity/normal? Which map script? I think pangaea vs. fractal can be a bit different.
     
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  3. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    I assume Deity/normal speed/(some regular map script) since, speaking as a non-Deity player, CRE is a measurable step above FIN when you're playing on a low(er) difficulty.

    Also, the +2:health: from EXP allows you to more freely settle cities without fresh water, opening up some opportunities that non-EXP leaders just can't afford without either having good health resources available (and keeping them, so fewer trade opportunities) or keeping around a few forests for health (and we all want those sweet delicious :hammers:, don't we :whipped:).
     
  4. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    It all depends on what kind of a game you are playing.

    In a normal random game (with barbs, of course):
    1. Creative is the best, no competition. Its very useful in general and there are a whole lot of very difficult starts that would not be playable without Creative at all (unless you a Lain kind of maniac).

    2. Financial. Considerable commerce boost in a vast majority of games. Sometimes it can be almost as lifesaving as Creative. For instance, when your only source of :commerce: is coast.

    3.
    -Philosophical helps to get those first and crucial GP for bulbing and golden age. Very handy in most games.
    -Imperialistic makes your initial setup much faster. Most useful on deity, where there is competition for good spots.
    -Expansive also makes your early development faster.

    The rest are rather situational. Only Protective stands out being nearly always completely irrelevant.

    HoF kind of play is very different and since you are allowed to choose as you feel fit for a kind of victory you want to get, it only makes sense to rank traits with just one games setting in mind.
    I chose my favorite - Deity/Terra/Space on a not too large or small map.
    0. Unique units, that is war chariots, immortals, praetorians and quechua. Playing without a good early UU for fast and smooth conquest makes no sense. Thus, I consider only Financial, Industrious, Organized, Imperialistic, Charismatic, Creative and Spiritual.

    1.
    -Imperialistic. That 50% bonus is insane! On marathon it remains useful for a long time, because you will need to settle more cities later. Also makes for a fairly convenient 3-pop whip with max overflow for failgold.
    -Financial.
    -Organized. Cheap courthouses cut the maintenance when you really need it. Those espionage aren't useless either. Used mainly for stealing gold/techs and support city revolt missions. You can steal a lot of gold from AI when its reduced to one city (Pangaea's discovery).
    And of course, factories.

    2.
    -Industrious provides 25% boost to wonderbread. Helps to build certain world wonders, like GLH.
    -Charismatic allows you to whip every city one more time (two times, once you captured Stonehenge).

    3. Spiritual and Creative. :dunno:
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @AcaMetis it's quite rare to run into :yuck:-problems on deity. Because the AI grabs a lot of land quickly, they will have many resources to trade. So getting rice for fish (for example) will be easy. +2:health: is not useless, but nothing that really alters the course of the game.
     
  6. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Best is subjective to your situation.
    If we're talking favs, mine are IND and PHilo. The fact that no civ starts with that combo should tell you something.
     
  7. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    While playing Huge/Mara/most times IMM (with some EMP/Deity)/NTT/18 civs I just can't not to play WvO - FIN (too massive early, except for some multi-gold/gems starts) + CRE (outside of free culture that alone can be massive if get isolated but have place for some 12-16-20-24 cities and not all of them would have source for quick monument or expensive library), 3 cheap buildings that are very sweet for mid-game are just too good to bypass), starts with Fishing (no wasted early turns building some useless worker - just kidding :D ), have no early UU (or crazy good game changing UB) and can give fun for years.
     
  8. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    I would value spiritual a lot higher. It is so good to never have to bother with anarchy.
     
  9. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Spiritual is difficult to quantify, but i like it a lot when i have it. I think it's better than the other C tier traits, but I'm not sure it belongs in the CRE, IND, CHA tier either.
     
  10. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    If I start in the middle of the map, spiritual is much more useful. To assist with the diplomacy dance.
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I do value Exp a lot higher. It's easy to say that one can whip granaries and workers, but the fact of the matter is that is not necessary. Whips can be used for other things. Especially nice in cities that aren't quite as food rich. The key point here is chops, and overflow of whips like settlers. These combos can often complete granaries and workers in 1 turn. Maths chops will complete grans in 1 turn. Or simply 1pop a gran immediately at size 2. EXP is very much about speeding up the early game that we all know is so important. EXP is easily 2nd tier IMO, and great when combined with other strong traits. Oh..another somewhat overlooked benefit is the ability to trade off or gift single health resources early on for diplo boost.

    Spiritual is one of those great traits that is better for more experienced players that know how to take advantage of it. The trait can be very powerful in the right hands. On a lesser note, I don't think cheap temples are something to sneeze at either.

    l will say that one trait I've warmed up to a bit in recent years is Imperialistic. While no means a top tier trait mind you, it does have its uses. Increased GG births is always nice, but I've really warmed up to the faster settler production. The fact that you can whip or chop settlers out so fast is pretty nice, but one thing I like is when you have a spot you've been ignoring but afraid or see an AI heading out there you can get one out fast to beat it. Again, it's not a great trait but it has some merit.

    Definitely agree that CHAR is a very good trait, and always like IND. I think De Gaulle is a Top 5 leader.
     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    My taste is very different it seems, I'll mention the things where I differ most from what you write @Fish Man

    I don't really like financial that much. Often much research is done by specialists and at other times the stray gold/gem/silver/fur keeps you going. Alot of beakers is also gained by trades and bulbs.
    Later on, when you start to need alot of teching power, you already have villages/towns that already give alot of commerce and the extra commerce doesn't add that much.
    I will cede that financial really does wonders in some niche situations, such as alot of coastal tiles early on.

    Regarding charismatic I don't really like that one that much either. I don't feel like there are a whole lot of situations where you are helped a whole lot by the +1 happy from monuments. The situation where you need happines the most (isolation) you obsolete the monuments early, and as such I often don't build them everywhere anyway.
    The faster promotion I also don't value too highly. Agg is way better here imho as it requires an absurd amount of XP for cha to become better. And units straight out of barracks (3xp) and barracks + one of vass/theo (5xp) is essentially the same. Even barracks+vass+theo (7xp) a cha unit is equal to a non-cha unit.


    I like spiritual alot more, mainly because it allows so many exotic options with civic swapping. Slavery+OR and whip some buildings, then the overflow can go into police-state/vass/theo units abit later. It's really mind-boggling what options open up. And the diplomacy crazyness is also golden. Be friendly with one AI and trade with them, then you can become friendly with another one abit later to trade again...
     
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  13. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    A-tier: Phi, Ind, Fin
    B-tier: Cre, Exp, Spi
    C-tier: Imp, Cha, Org
    D-tier: Agg, Pro

    My personal favorites are Spiritual and Creative. All spiritual leaders are really fun to play. The way the trait changes the game is just very interesting. Org is the dullest trait. I'm also not a big fan of Ind (I think it's powerful, just not fun).
     
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  14. drewisfat

    drewisfat Chieftain

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    Agree with Windsor's tiers. When I was last active on these forums, IND being #1 was a pretty popular opinion, with a couple people preferring phi. Since then and now the main event I've heard about is that wonderbread run.... so I'm really confused why people don't think IND is even more amazing. Is it just because Lain hates it :confused:

    My fav leader = Louis. A tier 1 and a tier 2 trait, great starting techs and a good UU. Only weakness is the Salon, but hey there's at least cultural synergy with it and both your traits if that's your style. With IND/CRE you can great wall and then culture flip barb cities for style points :thumbsup:
     
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  15. Swordnboard

    Swordnboard Chieftain

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    My personal listing, from the perspective of a random map on deity/normal:
    "Good" traits: Creative (10/10), Financial (8), Expansive (8), Imperialistic (7), Philosophical (7)
    "Bad" traits: Spiritual (5), Industrious (5), Organized (4), Charismatic (4), Aggressive (3), Protective (0/10).

    On really awful maps, Financial, Philosophical, and Charismatic seem to overperform since happiness and research are often the hardest things to come by. One underrated aspect of FIN is working coast tiles for 2/0/3, or even 1/0/3 early on. Helps to keep the expansion going despite poor land/lack of workers.

    For HOF (most of my experience is with normal speed), Industrious and Imperialistic get a boost. Wonders are good for failgold and also often an integral part of the strategy there. Expansion is useful for much of the game, and rich start + worker stealing creates a big need for settlers early on.
     
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  16. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Industrious is a good trait, but not as consistent as the other traits in my opinion. I think most of the players that did respond to Fishmans threat here play deity or immortal difficulty. In those games you usually don t get your hands on an early MC, so the fast forges (although they are very nice in my opinion) come into play later in the game.

    Aswell as building wonders, i don t think it is a huge advantage to be industrious on deity when you don t have marble or stone. It just takes too long to build those wonders at 150% hammers, when you also have other stuff to do like settlers, workers, granaries and libraries etc. Also without marble or stone it really is a gamble if you don t fail the wonder.

    The wonderbread economy is of course fantastic, but more of a thing for some alternative map scripts like epic or marathon speed and huge maps, where you really can invest a lot of forest chops and overwflow whips into those wonders in multiple cities to really create an absurd amount of gold. On normal speed, it also comes in handy but to a lesser extent, which is not as impactful as other good traits like financial, creative and phiosophical. Also the failgold is not too amazing when you only have +50%:hammers: bonus on your wonder production.

    At least thats my thought process when it goes for industrious. I still personally like it to build the national epic and heroic epic without marble. The +50% :hammers: bonus makes it somehow bearable for me to build those.
     
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  17. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Aside from possibly helping to get a key early wonder, IND feels kind of like a snowball trait to me these days. If you are behind on deity it's difficult to find wonders you can put hammers into. Its much easier when you are out in front, and it's obviously amazing in a HOF game where you have the game under control the entire time, but most difficult deity games don't present a lot of fail good opportunities.
     
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  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Exactly this. ORG is kinda similar, it's good when you have +15 cities i.e. you are already in great shape.
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You guys are all crazy, IND or Phi are #1 for desperate situations ;)
    Cre or Fin are luxury traits.
     
  20. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    This was the only point I think I take any issue with, I think. FIN is a blanket enhancement, but as it's tile-based, it's nowhere near as good as a 50% commerce advantage.

    First, the obvious one is that only 2c tiles get that much of a relative boost and better tiles get relatively less, so you feel it less if you just work better tiles in the first place (i.e towns instead of coast). In the context of the greater empire it's still only a single extra commerce whether FIN is boosting a 2c or 8c tile, but FIN is a lot more "helpful" to the 2c tile, which you generally don't want to work unless not given a better alternative. It's giving more weight to worse tiles, which I suppose is great in crunch times, but not ideal overall.

    Second, and this is the one I had to get past myself after so long, is that as FIN bonus is tile-based, it only gives you any additional help whatsoever if you are actually using that pop to work a tile with base 2c or greater anyway. You take every single population point in the empire, and if it isn't working a >2c, it's averaging down the FIN commerce bonus across all your tiles. Spamming cottages in bureau cap, or late-game US+FS blanketing the landscape with towns -- sure quite a lot of return from the trait going on. Running specialists, changing over to hammer economy, whipping heavily -- not so much.

    And i know you know all of this, it's just....FIN is not the economic win-button it looks like on paper; the game is fortunately more complex than that. I've expressed before that I don't think FIN is the best or strongest trait and that simply has to do with commerce not being end-all and be-all, and there being more oblique approaches to moving forward in any game.

    I think of FIN more of a cushion rather than a trait that increases total bounds, as despite how commonly the bonus can apply to a tile, the direction of actions and priorities in-game dictate a lot more how much it applies. If you need to bulb for Optics in an iso map, for instance, the extra commerce form working coast and cottages can help filling the in-between tech out easier, will make your economy healthier with no foreign trade. But in the context of the problem and it's proposed solution (need optics ASAP, bulb optics) PHI to cheapen scientists or CRE to start them earlier are actually more direct enhancements.

    Incidentally, I think the best parts of most traits that I've come to learn to like more are the quirky things you can do with them to gain small advantages. Things like using IMP to more easily gift an AI a crap desert/jungle city for diplomatic reasons, or PHI to farm GMs for mass unit upgrading instead of the more standard GS for bulbling techs. With FIN i think the greatest part of the trait are little micro tricks like cottaging a Calendar resource to get the extra commerce oomph early long before the actual Calendar tech acquisition or boosting lakes to 3/3 tiles with a lighthouse if you settle in the right coastal spot rather than the overarching "all my commerce tiles get boosted" aspect of it.

    Spoiler my opinions :
    PHI or (potentially) SPI are the strongest traits in terms of magnitude. They are also directly influenced by difficulty as this drives a lot of the value of bulbs and assistance in diplomacy navigation way up. SPI is really hard to quantify as the strongest aspect of it *is* diplomacy; anarchy turns are pretty trivial in nearly every game I've ever played and you can plan around them, bypass them, etc. And no I still don't think SPI is all that great, I never really have. But in terms of what it can do, greasing diplomacy at a key point can be a hinge for the entire game. Or not, depending on the map or opponent field, random religion aligning, etc.. It's hit or miss, but with undeniable potential in the right situation, or perhaps just a slight advantage here or there, convenience of having some freedom with civics etc.

    FIN /CRE are excellent ease of use traits. Each just enhances already standard play further and makes things that much easier for you. Cherry on top kinda stuff. They aren't as involved as the micromanagement inherent with SPI or PHI to min/max things, and not as specific in how to utilize it (fail-gold) like IND, yet they can still be abused hard if you want. I don't think of either as a power trait like PHI but games are certainly simpler with either trait giving one just a little bit easier of a time.

    IND is....I'm unsure anymore. I certainly would rather take CRE than IND these days. Fail-gold help is excellent, but I pretty much stopped doing fast MC stuff and dislike early wonder gambits (sans Mids or GLH on the right map) when I started to move up with the help of the NC games so the cheap forges seems like a more specialized gambit than really helpful in a general sense ( I'll just eventually 3-pop whip them later anyway) while I've learned to either build wonders without IND or how to forgo them altogether if not a feasible choice. And a lot of times, I find myself in conflict between trying to balance out funding more immediate expansion with Build Wealth and investing meaningful amounts of fail-gold for better research slightly later. Trying to fit in running specialists puts on even more strain economically when those pop slots can't work a tile. Overall I think it just mostly enhances something I'll do anyway (fail0gold) if I have a resource to abuse, but I can mostly get along without it. I've never felt broken in a tough spot by not having IND, though it certainly feels great when you're doing well in a game and can afford to invest fail-gold at will.

    ORG/CHA I feel are sorta similar to FIN/CRE as ease of use traits, just a little bit weaker and with different methods of application. ORG is a personal favorite trait, it lets one expand heavier (which I do a LOT, and because I can, not being a Deity player gives me a chance to snag too much land :p) and makes Lighthouses trivial buildings for any coastal spot (great for working coast when you have to...such as when overexpanded), and eventually Courthouses become a good thing to have since they are cheapened to Granary cost. CHA means a LOT when squeezed for happiness, which on a rough map can last for a LOOOOOONG time (sometimes until Optics/Astro on a really bad one :sad:). It also makes a good early-war trait regardless of that with the extra space for whip anger and the quicker 3rd promos on units. Unless you are running a big empire or are specifically happiness-crunched early, I don't see them as "powerful" as the better traits though.


    After that I kinda see the rest of the traits a grab bag of sorts. Other than PRO being the bottom of the barrel I don't think too strongly about any of them in particular.

    EXP I've never thought very highly of, and not for a lack of understanding the trait or how it works. Just a middling trait IMO. Shaving turns has a limit of usefulness, snowball or not. It's the whole no anarchy with SPI argument over again. Yes, slightly faster workers is an advantage while you still build them, and yes cheaper granaries makes them stupid easy to emplace whether you care to whip/chop them or not. I enjoy both aspects of the trait, sure...but nothing gamebreaking to the point that literally every other non-EXP civ on the map is gonna be behind or anything. You can't make a power play with EXP like PHI or SPI, it doesn't offer economic cushion or help to dig out, it doesn't auto-pop your borders for you, it doesn't directly enhance your units in war and it doesn't help with barbs. And so on. I do really like the trait for early attacks (axes, maybe HAs) as getting that worker faster and those granaries quicker for earlier efficient whipping CAN make all the difference there in such a critical threshold. But for me, overall an unexciting trait. May as well not even mention the health bonus either unless you are in a FP heavy start.

    IMP is a trait I never really liked for the longest time, but playing for a few years has let me see that it makes slow builds of settlers a much more bearable thing especially in low food/moderate hammer cities, lets one toss out gift cities with much less setback, do crazy stuff like forward settle an AI to rob their resources or cut off a land area, etc. It's an entirely different game facet when you can do things like that without stunting yourself as much. I don't think much of the GGs but there's a marked abundance of them so you can go nuts with promos if you want, and it makes that very first super-medic or unlocking the HE that much easier to snag. I definitely have a little bit more appreciation for it after using it some more.

    AGG can be either a nice quality of life trait or completely useless. It helps a lot with barbs, enhances an axe rush (or defense!), makes it really easy to produce early 2 promo units (Medic, Cover, Shock) for various uses since Barracks are so easy to get in place. It also ruins 2-pop whipping barracks for overflow purposes, is zero help with barbs if you don't have to worry about them (small island, cornered, surrounded etc) and if you aren't attacking with axes early not helping there either. I like the trait a lot more than I used to after seeing Lain use it in action (and playing more aggressively myself in games). Handy to have in the right situation but won't miss it, pretty much.

    PRO...there's not much to say about it that almost everyone already knows. It COULD be quite useful, in the right specific situation...assuming it were unavoidable through diplomacy, no other resource based units are available, etc. In practice it's just not, and this a dump stat of a trait. Fun to do the cho-ko-nu thing or choke a rival with PRO archers, I guess. I think the things I dislike most about it is like AGG, it ruins an early 2-pop building that can be used for overflow purposes on wonders --especially maddening if you are playing Qin specifically.
     
    Orion Pax, sampsa, Excal and 2 others like this.

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