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[R&F] Tier Rankings

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Ever Adrift, Mar 12, 2018.

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Given your favored playstyle and victory type(s), pick the four civs that you consider most powerful

Poll closed Mar 27, 2018.
  1. USA

    2.8%
  2. Zulu

    33.3%
  3. Australia

    47.2%
  4. Scotland

    16.7%
  5. Brazil

    4.2%
  6. China

    4.2%
  7. Cree

    18.1%
  8. Dutch

    8.3%
  9. Egypt

    1.4%
  10. Spain

    2.8%
  11. France

    1.4%
  12. Georgia

    1.4%
  13. German

    29.2%
  14. Greek - Pericles

    8.3%
  15. Greek - Gorgo

    12.5%
  16. Indian - Gandhi

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Indian - Chandragupta

    4.2%
  18. Indonesia

    5.6%
  19. Japan

    9.7%
  20. Khmer

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  21. Kongo

    11.1%
  22. Sumeria

    30.6%
  23. Macedonia

    22.2%
  24. Mapuche

    2.8%
  25. Mongolia

    13.9%
  26. Russia

    30.6%
  27. Nubia

    26.4%
  28. Persia

    18.1%
  29. Poland

    2.8%
  30. Scythia

    19.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Yes, get a religion with the Crusader belief for +10 combat strength near foreign cities that follow your religion and come knocking at their door in a golden age. Voila, +20 combat strength. Yes, your Malon Raider corps will be stronger than Mechanized Infantry ... in Renaissance. Have fun.
     
    OneMoreTurnPerTile likes this.
  2. liv

    liv Emperor

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    I liked Mapuche. I am a warmonger but culture is quite important to get those early advances towards feudalism and you can do that without much effort. His abilities are a bit of a luck and chance but I was ready to attack when my neighbours hit golden age. Not the strongest new civ. (which I kind of think is Chandra)
     
  3. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Warlord

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    I've been wondering about them - I think I'm trying them next (I just began my first R&F game as a Vanilla civ; I want to give France a go now that diplomatic visibility is more useful and cultural victories are my preferred route.

    I don't really ever fight offensive wars, but the loyalty system has me doing it - it makes it far more enjoyable to me. Given Mapuche's effects on loyalty they could be a lot of fun, easily conquering civs through war and loyalty... or undermining the civs most threatening to you by turning several of their cities into free cities over and over (you can do it with theological combat, too, making even more devious).

    Unique playstyle, seems like it might make a more offensive style culture game realistic.
     
  4. Bizrock

    Bizrock Chieftain

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    Japan can get good theater district adjacencies, and even theater discount.
     
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  5. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    Yeah but in MP all of those cree bonus are beaten by an early +6 or 7 campus. I forgot about korea, korea as well. Pretty much any civ that is guaranteed to be ahead of the others in science early is at the very least super annoying in mp.
     
  6. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    I'm surprised the USA isn't getting more votes, the Film Studio is incredibly powerful for culture victories.
     
  7. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Warmongers should try out Chandragupta. Their rush comes later, but Chandra is the strongest rusher in the late classical/early medieval era.
     
  8. MetalmindStats

    MetalmindStats Chieftain

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    As a player who always seeks peaceful science victories, my four votes were for Australia (obviously), the Cree, Germany, and Sumeria.

    Australia is obvious - they're just on a whole other level compared to all the other poll options for really any sort of science victory, in my opinion. The Cree have become my favorite civ to play as in general - their abilities are truly excellent for making populous, productive, and profitable cities practically anywhere. Germany's extra district slot, plus the Hansa with its versatile adjacency bonuses and synergy with commercial hubs, really helps distinguish them as a production powerhouse. I have never really gotten Sumeria to work myself, but their ziggurats are a huge beaker boost practically right from the get-go. Their barbarian extermination machines - erm, I meant war-carts - are great for early defense and exploration to boot. Honorable mention to Indonesia, which really floats my boat on more maritime-oriented maps in particular.

    As far as the civs that weren't included in the poll, Korea is the obvious number one for peaceful science victories - they're literally like playing one difficulty level lower than you're used to. Rome and the Aztecs are also solid choices (even for purely peaceful science victories), albeit not nearly on the same level as Korea and Australia. It seems odd to me that you specified Arabia as a civ generally agreed to be near top-tier, though. As far as I see it, Arabia is not nearly top tier, and I think most people would agree with me, as evidenced by the responses in this thread for example.

    To briefly break down Arabia's uniques: mamluks are probably their best unique - knights are already great for conquest, and then you add in that they heal every turn even while taking actions. Those same attributes make them more-than-proficient defensive units to boot, so they're definitely one of the better UUs overall. The Last Prophet grants a guaranteed religion, which tends to be late and weak, resulting in only a minor boon. The madrasa's faith from its campus's adjacency bonus helps somewhat, but it still isn't a very impactful bonus overall, and neither is the minor bonus science from the aforementioned abilities. Righteousness of the Faith is like the rest of Arabia's uniques - decently useful with its science, culture, and faith yield boosts but far from top tier.

    My personal evaluation of the civs by their effectiveness at obtaining peaceful science victories, including only the top three tiers for civs that have significant peaceful SV advantages over a theoretical generic civ (ordered within tiers):

    S Tier: Korea, Australia

    A Tier: The Cree, Germany, Sumeria, The Aztecs

    B Tier: Nubia, Indonesia, Scotland, Arabia, China, Rome, The Netherlands
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  9. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    Comes a bit late...
     
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  10. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Nov 21, 2016
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    517
    I normally go for a cultural victory with lots of infrastructures, greatworks and wonders,
    maybe on top of an early domination to eliminate all my neighbors, as I just cant stop conquering once I started it.

    So in my favor, I will choose
    China (Uncomparable early wonder builder + defense),
    Sumeria/Rome (Godlike warlord + mobility in the early game),
    Kongo (Immense no. of great works and decent UU for offensive/defensive)
    Germany (chunks of production to build everything I want, although they suffer in early game)

    Ofc the other civs all have their powerful CUA and niches, but the above civs fit my playstyle more.
    I do think Aztec is very powerful and all rounded too. But I hate to move those warriors (and captured builders) one tile per turn to attack all over the continent.

    Mongolia, Zulu, Macedons all ripe way too late for me although they are tremendous warlords too.

    Korea is top tier in science, but I find it boring. As all we have to do is put down seweon+Industrial area, plant farms and mines, and then fill the districts with more buildings... Cultural victory sounds more fun for me as I have more things to do and won't get bored in late game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  11. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Can someone explain to me why Aztecs are considered THAT good? Is it the builders? Or am I missing something? I don't normally play domination, so maybe that's why they don't particularly cater to me, but they don't seem like an outstanding civ to me - good, but not amazing.
     
  12. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Those are part of their strength above. More importantly, their +1 strength per luxury amenity is very scary.
    Combining all these, Aztec is a powerful district spamming + happy(and thus loyalty) + highly war specialized civ = all viable&powerful civ
    Actually, being good at war from early game is already a very defining factor for the tier list (look at Nubia, Sumeria and Scythia). And above that, Aztecs have got versatile and powerful other bonuses.
     
  13. Japper007

    Japper007 Prince

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    Curious how different communities can come up with entirely different OP civs. Over at Realms Beyond Skythia and Sumer are still insta-bans, while Aztecs rarely even get considered. We've come to the consensus that the UU is too costly to be an effective rush, too gimmicky to make work consistently (wrt the Builder stealing), the UB is trash and Builders start becoming cheaper than Districts waaay to late to matter. Rome is considered stronger for the double of Early culture and a beastly UU and a pretty nice UD and Japan and Gorgo/Pericles are actually seen as the strongest rush civs (earliest GG potential) with the two S-civs banned. We do not have a complete game as the R&F civs yet. Australia and Russia are generally regarded as strong economic civs but with a lack of early defense.

    Do your community's games go far into the late game, or later era starts perhaps? Ours are usually decided turn 120-140 standard speed, I can see Aus being top tier in a later era start, when it actually can build a Outback Station when it still matters
     
  14. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    I will say Rome and Aztecs are on par in terms of tier, but Rome is much easier to manage. (Personally I favor Rome too, but strategically saying Aztec is equally powerful in long term).
    Rome needs iron work to get the UU and they lose their edge in combat afterwards.
    Aztecs has the warrior UU that are earlier and easier to build compared to Rome, and Aztecs can keep the momentum of combat strength even after early game,
    +1 strength per different luxuries can make them catch up to legions' level in most cases, (provided that they have the relevant resources to update the units).
    But Aztecs is far more complex in management to maximize the potential of stolen workers.

    And Japan being the strongest rush civs? I wonder, how?
    Nubia will be tremendous in early rushes as well.
     
  15. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    Sumeria is banned as well because of the sack factor mostly. Whoever starts next to them dies and you dont have control over start location. Aus isnt banned for the outback station, its banned because having a +7 campus early game is imbalancing and frees up to much production.

    Most games are over by turn 80 or less if somebody gets rushed out early, or a domino war happens. "Normal" games have been between 120 to 180. Some games have completely stalled and then its just a rush to nukes(which im sure was there purpose design wise). Once somebody gets fission its ussually that end game mad gab war. I dont even remember the full list anymore because nobody uses them anyway, we banned aztecs because the snowball from getting free workers early anf expediting districts was to much, and they were still a good civ otherwise. Whereas we would never think of banning somebody like macedon because multiple humans arent going to just let you run them over.they will probably be unbanned soon because of r and f changes.

    I know for sure gorgo is banned but peri is fine. Turns out rushing poly phi through combat and going oli swords/whatever is hars to deal with.

    Edit:i have never seen a culture or religious win online, or anybody even come close. Games just dont play out that way. I don't think non mp payers realize how bare bones MP games.
     
  16. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    No it's not just the builders - all their abilities are seriously good. Free builders are hugely important in the early game and you can set up builder farms to ensure you get tons of them which translates to more buildings, districts, and wonders since you can chop away at everything that much quicker. This alone makes the Aztec warrior the best UU in the game IMO, not to mention their very high combat strength which is further boosted by luxuries (and now you also get a free +4 era points for doing nothing since you start with one). I usually just churn out Eagles and immediately send them to the nearest opponent - not quite as effective as war-carts but still, damn hard to counter. The worker steal also perfectly gels with their district rushing ability and building districts is probably the biggest bottleneck in the game. Aztecs can completely get around the district scaling issue since the charges scale up as well so districts always cost 5 charges all game long. Note that they can even rush spaceports which makes SV kind of a joke for them.

    Aztecs also don't have to worry much about happiness or war weariness thanks to the luxury bonus. This one isn't quite as good but it's still powerful. You will have tons of happy cities and few instances where you run over amenity caps. The combat boosts for EACH luxury makes domination super easy. Have you ever tried warring with Aztecs with 10+ luxuries? You will be rolling everyone with far superior units. This makes a substantial difference for early conquering too even if you have just a few luxuries in your capital - it can help negate the combat bonuses the AI gets on high difficulty. It was recently pointed out to me that the combat bonus even applies to religious units so they have a big advantage there as well.
     
  17. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Yeah, all the power to you guys, but Civ has just never seemed like it would be a fun game to play online to me.
     
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  18. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I think the reason why the Aztecs aren't banned in all multiplayer games (despite being the strongest civ in SP in my opinion by far actually) is that they aren't as strong in MP as they are in single player, while Sumeria is just as good in MP as in single player. Aztecs, despite their insane strength units, can often be stopped with defensive wars because their units are too expensive. The war carts are really hard to stop on the other hand. The tier list looks different in MP than in SP for various reasons. Australia and Korea are also just as good in MP as they are in SP. Nubia for example isn't. Their unique archers make conquering the AI really easy, but not necessarily against a decent other player who knows that you are Nubia... Scythia got reduced to a normal civ in MP through the nerfs eventually - still very powerful in SP though. I haven't played that much civ in MP, but in other games, it is also very common to form an alliance or coalition against a very strong civ/player. I suppose this can happen in early wars as well in civ VI.

    Anyway my list of what I had a chance to vote for:
    Australia
    Scotland
    Germany
    Nubia

    I sure would have included the Aztecs, but I wouldn't have voted for Rome, which I consider a solid civ, but not top tier (they are easy to play though). Honorable mention goes to Persia, which is similarly strong to Nubia imo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  19. Japper007

    Japper007 Prince

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    The first Great General is only 60 GGpoints, hotly contested, and often game-deciding in MP. Japan is the only one that gets a discount (now joined by Zulu) towards the Encampment. Hense, unless the starts are really unbalanced, Japan'll almost always be first to get a Great General. Only competition is Greece who can run Strategos before tier 2 governments or Rome and Gorgo because they can just blitz through the culture tree with hard culture and get to governments that way. On top of that Japan is just damn flexible, picking up tons of yields from adjacency without relying on terrain like civs such as Dutch or Brazil, or everyone with needing mountains for Campuses and it has an easier time picking up a Religion with, again, discounted districts.

    Nubia (or Sumer for that matter) is of course stronger it doesn't even need a Great Gen to succeed in an early rush. Everyone else will have a very painful time of it though.
     
  20. Japper007

    Japper007 Prince

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    I have, Alhambram in PBEM2 won through a religious push, though there were shenanigans that made it work out for him, he was in a DoF with the only guy who wasn't converted yet so his religious units couldn't be stopped and he also crushed the founder of the only other major religion with Cossacks.
     

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