Tilting at the Deity windmill

Spam, spam, spam, spam in other words.

Did you say 150MWs? How the heck am I supposed to churn out so many? I launched the war with about 15-20.
 
Spam, spam, spam, spam in other words.

Did you say 150MWs? How the heck am I supposed to churn out so many? I launched the war with about 15-20.
Say you have 12 Pop5-7 cities (needs Freshwater/ Ducts, and Luxes, but Iros are AGRI...), getting 5-10SPT (split the difference and call it 7.5SPT average), that's 90SPT. MWs cost 30s, so that's 3 MWs per turn. So you'd need ~50T of spamming for 150 MWs.

So your first 50T could be Warrior+Settler+Worker+Rax chopping/spamming (but Iros are AGRI...), then another 25T of MW-spamming, start your war with 50-75 MWs, finish it with 150 MWs minus whatever you lost so far: you could already have overrun your Tiny continental neighbour(s) by T100, and be in a good position to start on the other continent(s) -- once you've found it/them... ;)
 
Spam, spam, spam, spam in other words.

Did you say 150MWs? How the heck am I supposed to churn out so many? I launched the war with about 15-20.

It is my experience that at small size maps the production usually starts to stagnate between 180 spt and 210 spt because of very high corruption in the periphery. During GA it is much more spt. At 210 spt you can produce 140 MW in 20 turns.

In the beginning you will have a much smaller empire and thus much smaller production. But in the ancient age most civs donnot have muscets either.. They will have spearmen and those may be even worse than muskets that only give 0.67 defence per shield.
 
Republic is superior in the long run, in the short run monarchy is slightly preferable. I agree with Lanzelot that Republic is the better choice. But i wonder whether that is true. Or does it just mean that the difficulty setting is too low? If AI forces one to have a great military early and and forces one to use it in a way that would induce war weariness, than monarchy will the better choice. Being less vulnerable to unit support and war weariness is quite an advantage.

Also Monarchy is the better choice for the Iroquois due to their absurdly strong UU.
I say Monarchy is stronger simply because in an industrial or late middle age war, one is likely to see lots of AI units and we'll need several of our own to counter them. On smaller or maybe standard maps, with lesser cities the unit upkeep is enough to drain your treasury and the added disadvantage of greater war weariness at Diety adds value to Monarchy.
 
Say you have 12 Pop5-7 cities (needs Freshwater/ Ducts, and Luxes, but Iros are AGRI...), getting 5-10SPT (split the difference and call it 7.5SPT average), that's 90SPT. MWs cost 30s, so that's 3 MWs per turn. So you'd need ~50T of spamming for 150 MWs.

So your first 50T could be Warrior+Settler+Worker+Rax chopping/spamming (but Iros are AGRI...), then another 25T of MW-spamming, start your war with 50-75 MWs, finish it with 150 MWs minus whatever you lost so far: you could already have overrun your Tiny continental neighbour(s) by T100, and be in a good position to start on the other continent(s) -- once you've found it/them... ;)

LOL it's easy! Why have I been knocking myself out for so long? OK, I think it's time I started taking this game seriously. :D
 
I say Monarchy is stronger simply because in an industrial or late middle age war, one is likely to see lots of AI units and we'll need several of our own to counter them.

In the industrial age communism is way stronger than monarchy. In the late middle age however high shield per unit ratios will reduce the amount of units, so there will only be slightly greater amounts than in the late ancient age. More importantly marketplaces, libraries etc. increase the value of the commerce bonus. Therefore i come to the opposite conclusion: Monarchy is strong early on, but from the late middle ages on republic is clearly superior, at least on Deity and below.
 
They are laughing their butts off on the AI forum. Plan A worked perfectly. Wheel, writing, Phil, meet everybody, trade for all they have, get a GSL (with Phil again!) build the TofA but: no horses, no iron and no luxuries! WTH!! :(
 
They are laughing their butts off on the AI forum. Plan A worked perfectly. Wheel, writing, Phil, meet everybody, trade for all they have, get a GSL (with Phil again!) build the TofA but: no horses, no iron and no luxuries! WTH!! :(

Oh, I get the same crap on Regent. You don't need to be on Deity to experience Resource progression issues.

I've just stopped bothering with a fun game I was having with the Egyptians. I started with a Capital on a straggly slim part of an island, sort of Panama Canal looking, but with no South America below it. Good news was I had Horses and Iron relatively near plus one luxury. No Cows or fresh water though and no grassland on my half of the island...

The only freshwater on the entire continent sized island was one lake square in the Roman half (the Roman half also having a very large Grassland section). Even before I got to Horseback Riding I had started spamming Archers and the Romans were doomed - but it took way more turns than it should and my economy was a snail's pace. 10AD came around and I was still in the Ancient Age and not even in Republic yet, Harbours and Sugar being my only source of 2 Food squares within my core, but I couldn't just dump all Citizens into Coastal work as I would have virtually zero production for hosing Romans.

By about 500AD I had my island fully irrigated and was back on track and I could concentrate on taking a small but worthwhile Grassland island to the south, currently inhabited by... Babylonians with their 2/2 Bowmen. A collection of Ancient Cavalry, Knights, an Army of Ancient Cavalry got bogged down after taking the first city and I hung around while I produced 10/15 more Knights to go and do the job properly. In the mean time I'm also Settling some Pure Jungle or Pure Desert/Plains mini-islands above where the Romans had been - to which the Hittites, who got the Lighthouse, were now competing for space (but easily removed, even if it slowed me down again by splitting my forces and holding up building production).

By about 1500AD I was in a state of Kama. Core was fully productive and size 12s, all nearby AIs out the way, Techs coming in at 4tpt and Railroads not far away. But when I looked at how the new Resources were situated...

Coal - next to the furthest town on the Babylonian island. Coal, next to the furthest town in the Roman region.

Rubber - next to the furthest town on the Babylonian island. Rubber at the absolute tip of the three 'spare' islands to the north, on the third Desert/Plains island.

As if each new Resource represented a new independent difficulty level, like the game's reward for conquering, the game nudging me into combat if I wasn't already.

By this point I had over 15% of the world's surface, all terrain types covered in abundance aside from Tundra. That's one 1/6.5ths of the world's surface out of 12 starting Civs. What happens next?

1922 - Refining - oh, no oil... really... no oil... oh look, it's on the next island out to the north, a tiny pure Tundra island, currently settled by the Hittites...

And there was me having just set my game's strategy towards a UN victory with a whole raft of carefully devised trades and agreements... now I have to declare on someone again... without oil...

Yes, it was all possible and blah blah blah do this that the other to enable XYZ situation - but the sheer obnoxiousness of the situation deflated me psychologically to the point where I simply couldn't be bothered any more. I no longer rage-quit games, I now roll-eyes-quit...

...And start a new game. :)
 
.... there will only be slightly greater amounts than in the late ancient age.

Are you kidding me!
In the ancient age the most we encounter are stacks of 20 - 25 AI units at Diety while in the IA the numbers can easily go into triple digits. In the ancient age, we use more of ground units, while in the IA, canons and later artillery play a significant role in battle plans.
 
Finally! A win at Deity. Nearly. All went according to plan. I conquered my continent and then powered past the Ottomans after switching from monarchy to republic (I agree, the commercial benefit is enormous). By the time they erased Egypt, leaving us with one continent each (I had a toe hold on theirs as my only supply of oil) I had 55-45 pop advantage and the tech lead in the early modern era. Just a matter of launching the rocket and then I could take my place in the pantheon of the greats. Then, a strange thing happened. The game was suddenly interrupted by a window saying 'you have suffered a humiliating cultural defeat'. LOL. At no point in the game had I even looked at the culture scores. This poses a major problem. It means my tiny continent method doesn't work unless I am willing to launch (and win) a war across the seas after knocking out my neighbour. Aargh!!!

If I disable cultural victory does it still count? No. I don't think so either. Rats!
 
How very frustrating that the forum went down just as I was pulling off my first Deity win!:) (no reloads, not even for crassly not noticing an enemy unit next to a critical but empty city and stupidly losing the darn place). It went thusly:

Ancient era - researched wheel, writing, philosophy, got something or other free then got horseback riding. Then launched an early despotic war against America with a small handful of mostly regular MWs. Meanwhile got monarchy in a trade with the Ottomans and made peace at once. Revolted into monarchy in about 750 BC and immediately renewed hostilities. Extorted Republic from America in the final peace treaty, immediately resumed the war then ruthlessly knocked the last stronghold out. That was in about 70BC.

Middle Ages - revolted straightaway into Republic. Mostly peaceful, consolidating era. Noted that Egypt (no. 2 power behind the mighty Iroquois) was wiping out the Ottomans, my buddies, but also noted that the Ottomans had accessible iron, which I did not. So, with the Ottomans on their knees, I launched an amphibious invasion in the vicinity of Istanbul, picking up that city (including the workshop and the soon-to-be obsolete Hanging Gardens IIRC) iron and gems.

Into the industrial age with the Ottomans wiped out. One continent each but I had a toehold on Egypt's. Egypt had no saltpetre (throughout the game, all three sources being on my continent). As the era unfolded it turned out that this was a pattern. I had no rubber, Egypt no oil etc (although we both had coal). Egypt had a healthy tech lead but researched the wrong things (ironclads, fascism and similar rubbish) while I followed my favoured path: steam, industrialisation (the factory, coal/hydro plant, railways and mines meant that, later on, Salamanca was cranking out exactly 100 shields per turn = 1 bomber!) medicine, electricity, scientific method, build the Theory of Evolution and get replaceable parts and Atomic Theory free, then head for Electronics, build the Hoover Dam, bosh! All of which was accomplished but along with that was an extended defensive war fought almost exclusively around my enclave on Egypt's continent.

During the war, I found Egypt had colonised a small island off my coast and that its city there was built on a rubber source, which I badly needed. So another amphibious assault netted that while my collection of armies (muskets, rifles and cavalry) and artillery bumped off endless hordes of enemy infantry. On one turn, one of my new infantry armies chewed up about 35 enemy infantry units for the loss of a few hit points.

As soon as Egypt was ready for peace I traded for communism at a high price and immediately went into anarchy for the third time (7 turns) so the final war would not be attended by crippling war weariness. When ready, I launched the final conflict, staking out enemy territory with settlers and heading in the general direction of Memphis and Thebes to head off Egypt's looming culture win (52,000 on the way to 60,000 at about 500 points per turn) by destroying those cities (in fact I magnanimously absorbed them into the empire along with armfuls of GWs). My armies of infantry, cavalry, rifles and muskets, combined with massed artillery and auxiliary cavalry, guerrillas and infantry (I left the MW army at home) did the job (I.e. domination) by 1826 just as I tipped into the modern era.

So that's that! Now what? SID is most definitely out of the question but what else is there to live for?

Lessons - tiny continental games seem to be very heavily influenced by the distribution of resources. It is a major headache to discover that the nearest oil or rubber or coal is in unfriendly hands a continent away. Therefore, I should put more effort into exploring, which I tend to neglect. Nor should I neglect little islands as they often turn out to be handy, if only as unsinkable aircraft carriers.

An ultra-early war seems best for the Iroquois, never mind the early GA. If you can bag an entire continent, basically half the globe, you must be in with a chance. Inferior numbers can be compensated for with speed. Time and again a couple of fresh MWs would turn up just in time to decide the fate of a battle. As Justanick suggested, I mostly used regulars, 'spamming' them as much as I could but I doubt I ever had much above 20-30 at one time. If you don't attack early then you either fall too far behind or worse, you get attacked early yourself when there is usually no chance.

The AI/KI is unbelievably stupid. My pathetic navy consisted of a few outmatched caravels and galleons and these were allowed to ferry forces back and forth to the Istanbul bridgehead unmolested, when they could easily have been destroyed. The enemy preferred to misuse its navy in making piecemeal, ineffectual amphibious raids. I so denuded my own continent of forces that there were times when a well organised landing could have caused serious trouble. This is yet another advantage of the tiny continental approach - the AI is even more useless at naval operations than it is at everything else.

Anyway, real fun that was. I learned so much here and thank you guys again for the many invaluable tricks, lessons and insights (and the conversation). What an amazing game.
 
My second Deity win (is in the offing) again on a tiny continental map, but this time playing the Celts (against the same hand-picked opponents: Ottomans, Egypt and America) will have been quite different and, dare I say it, quite easy too. That's because I was handed my own continent from the start. Not only that but it turned out to have just about everything on it: wine, spices, gems, Ivory and fur and at least one of each resource.

As I did not see the American scout for a suspiciously long time I figured I was alone fairly early so I eschewed Monarchical government, got the slingshot to Republic and aimed to keep up in the tech race, which I more or less managed, even though I did not build the theory of E. I had only one very short war and kept my UU out of it. In fact, through the whole game I don't think I actually used the swordsman once. Come to that, I hardly used my ancient cavalry either. Nor have I had a single army at any point. My GA was triggered when I built the Hoover Dam.

When it became clear that America was going to reach the civ-wide culture limit I revolted into communism and launched a very protracted war, finally knocking out the yanks just in time in the early modern era. I am now polishing off the Ottomans to hit the domination limit. That was all there was too it. I even managed to totally screw up the decisive assault on Washington and get away with it (note to self: next time, use the bombers to isolate a size 31 city like this one by erasing its road/rail network first, rather than battering away at it like a moron).

So, tiny continental seems to work really well, the main problem being to prevent the most successful rival reaching 60,000 culture points.

ETA the Gallic Swordsman is more expensive than the MW but that drawback is offset by having only 2-turn anarchy. It's like having a faster pit stop in a Grand Prix. Unlike Lanzelot, I get seriously bothered by war weariness so switching to communism in the later stages is a must and the 9 turns it invariably takes with the Iroquois is a real bummer.
 
Looks like you've been doing a great job at Diety in the time the site was down ... [emoji6]
Congratulations on the victory.

Thanks AJ. Just polished off the Celts win. All very smooth. I believe I lost just one city to a flip throughout the whole game (nice edge the Celts have - they don't flip so easily). It was like my stodgy old emperor days :D
 
Most excellent work my friend.
Spoiler :
I too finally achieved victory in the interim (albeit still only at Emp -- although without cherrypicking my map and opponents ;) ), launching my Ship ahead of Ghandi, and sending the glorious Koreans to the stars. Admittedly, that didn't happen until about 1920 AD, and my ending civ-score was dreadful -- but considering that there were 4/6 Civs still on the map (the Hittites hanging on by the skin of their teeth on three 1-/2-tile islands), and that I was playing from behind (in every sense) right up until the mid-/late-Industrial, I'm still quite happy with it.

No excuses now -- DG for my next Random-game...
 
So what is it going to be next : Diety on other maps and with variations or the mighty SID challenge?

SID, I think is beyond me. It's really insane. I just played a few turns on a map I already played and I don't think I have the appetite or the ability for it. No, for now, I quite like the tiny continental game. I enjoy the war at the end with 20th century weapons and I have enormous room for improvement there. Maybe some kind of personal speed challenge. I dunno. What about the Hall of Fame? It would be cool to get into that but I never seem to score lots of points, another mystery area. The two Deity games netted about 5,000 each.
 
The Hall of Fame isn't about points scored, it's categorised by victory date and is a completely separate form of game-training which requires such abstractions as reloading a Tiny Pangea until your rival/s start really close to your first city and then attempting to capture their only Towns before they can even build more than a Warrior for defence - so also involves the luck factor of your Unit defeating their Unit.

When I first saw the list the biggest gaps available to get an entry were on the Huge maps, where there wasn't even 10 people who had completed a Huge Emperor Science win, for example. I completed a lame Dutch Huge Science win in about 1798 which got me on the board (about 8th), but it was rejected because I didn't have the requisite save-games at the exact dates they required - because I never start a game with the intention of making a HoF game, in this map I just happen to notice how easy it was as I was playing.

So the HoF is more about how quickly than how many points and also how quickly within the framework of the rules the HoF allows (such as minimum number of opponents) and does not differentiate between, for example, Continents and Pangea - (good luck getting the fastest domination possible on an Archipelago map on Monarch etc etc.).

But it provides a fun objective for some and people, such as Spoonwood, get a huge amount of enjoyment from attempting to solve early victories on all difficulties and sizes.
 
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