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Time victory seems broken?

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tripleducky, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    I did a search for this topic and I'll look again after I write this post. But anway...

    I was basically sold on this mod until I lost. I lost to a time victory. My science was 77 researched to the winning player's 65. That's pretty silly. Is the game supposed to be balanced so that winning a science victory is unlikely? I never had this issue in the game unmodded. The game just felt like it ended way too soon.

    Obviously I appreciate that the ai is putting up a fight. Even on lower difficulty settings. That's really cool. But 77 to 65 science, and then I lose to time? Come on.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You can unselect the time victory condition at the start of the game. That'll solve your problem.

    I'm surprised the AI didn't achieve any VC before time ran out. What turn was it, and what level?

    As you get better at playing with the mod, you'll quickly reach the point where you'll always get a SV before time runs out.
     
  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    ...How?

    Seriously, I don't know how you CAN have a time victory before science. Did you just refuse to build science buildings or something?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  4. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    obviously he and the AI were prioritizing other things. makes sense to me.
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Difficulty, boys. You forget how slow things are in other difficulties.

    @tripleducky, don't be sad, things like this happened to us on the first tries too. If you want a science victory, you have to get it before turn 500. Just take into account that culture is very important to achieve best results (ideologies tenet 3 is where you find the key to victory), so you don't get a scientific victory focusing 100% on science. You need a strong economy, a potent culture and a sizeable army too. You need to get a hand in the world congress, so AI don't put sticks in your wheels, even if you can't force your will, try to stop spaceship regulations at all costs.
    Txurce's fix works, I tried that my first time too, but I assure you that you can get that scientific victory in time, even in warlord. It just gets a bit of time to unlearn BNW ways.
     
  6. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    I was playing on chieftan, as I was instructed to becaue ai would be harder. I used to play the unmodded game on emperor, so if I'm missing something I don't know it's gotta be pretty unintuitive. I was focused on science the entire game. It was on default map settings and all that.

    And I was not focused on other things. I think what shows that is that the top ai player had 65 tech and I had 77 when it ended. Nobody was even close. It honestly felt like a "..." moment.

    I really don't know what to think, but your responses lead me to believe there was something funky about my game. I remember in the unmodded game it was actually challenging to avoid a science victory. I mean, It's possible I was doing something wrong, but its not obvious to me that I was.
     
  7. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    I had #1 culture as well. Why do I need a sizeable army? The ai didn't put sticks in my wheel. Spaceship regulation did not happen. Don't patronize me nobody said I was sad.

    Edit: if the ai isn't even close to victory isn't that an indication that something is funky with the mod?
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    The mod aims for the AI to achieve a SV in 400-450 turns, although it can be faster. It's possible that under the right circumstances on Cheftain the AI wouldn't make it by t500.

    VP is much harder than BNW, but I doubt Warlord here is tougher than Emperor there. Like tu_79 said, there was probably something off about your approach to a SV -- most likely, not enough focus on culture. I only play for SV, and I can assure you that if you take culture seriously, the science falls into place.

    Edit: just saw your last reply. Being #1 in culture sounds good, unless you were all in the dumps in that regard. An army is technically irrelevant, as long as you have enough cities and pop to generate beakers.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Well, I'm sorry. I had a very similar game first time and I was sad back then. You'll get better.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    One last thought: you dominated enough that you should probably be playing at a higher level. Try one higher on your next game.
     
  11. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    I'll get better or I'll quit playing because no one was close to victory conditions when the game ended? I'm going to screenshot the last autosave, turn 491.

    Here: https://imgur.com/8BxqBJr

    That's my scorecard. Feel free to explain away my stupidity, or to not bother.

    Edit: tbh I was playing on warlord. So even more "interesting" that the ai wasn't near victory.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  12. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    VP is more difficult, but not that much. I would count 2 difficulty levels of difference.
    The AI is much more potent, but a lot of "early AI bonuses" have been removed.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    OK, I'll try a warlord game next, playing for a scientific victory and I'll try to see if it is possible to achieve before turn 500 or not.

    The easier the difficulty, the slower the game goes, so it could be possible what you say in warlord, but I want to be sure that it's a problem balancing difficulties and not just your play style.

    My current game was ruined anyway.

    Edit. Songhai, continents, standard, isn't it?
     
  14. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    yes that's correct. I'm not saying its impossible, I was close. Even if you have a similar experience with the ai not finishing that would be a balance issue wouldn't it? I'm talking untouched, big empires. And I appreciate it because this patch felt like a game changer! First time I've felt like I was competing with the ai, rather than comp stomping them. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Could you elaborate a bit your strategy? Policies, Religion, expansion waves, city state attitude, alliances, beelined wonders?
     
  16. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You can see most of that in hs graphic. For example, he went Tradition and built 6 cities, got a religion and took Fealty. All the Wonders are listed. He played the game just fine. I think something was off somewhere.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Judging by the image, there are a few suspects:
    - 21000 unspent faith points.
    - Idle great prophet in 2045.
    - 6 idle spies.
    - A few undigged sites.
    - 17/39 units.
    - Random wonders.
    - Too many farms / too few villages.

    Or

    It could be simply that in warlord downwards science is too slow. I'm checking on that.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    What would really make it that much slower though?

    I mean sure your spies won’t get as much or your trade routes, but I can’t imagine that would add 50 turns to the end game, let alone not be able to finish a SV.

    How many great scientists were gotten? Thst is normally the source of big science late game
     
  19. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

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    The overall pace will mainly slow down due to the missing tech cost reduction for players that already know the tech (the AI techs slower due to missing bonuses, the player is ahead all the time and thus has no tech cost reduction, as opposed to a game where player and AI are about par, where effectively everyone will have some tech cost reduction here and there).
     
  20. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    No villages -> no enough gold to rush buildings
    Lot of useless wonders
    Tradition into fealty, not a big fan. Artistry gives a lot of science and culture when going tall.
    No enough holy sites, 21000 faith points, did you get the reformation?
    No enough alliances with city states (you're missing a lot of yields from chanceries in early game if you don't try to get some allies).

    And seriously, Shonghai is a Progress or Authority civ, you have enough room for more cities. Jenne is a really bad city for my taste, you can't build a lighthouse -> harbor -> seaport.

    Vox Populi is a whole different game, you don't need to go tall ALWAYS like vanilla civ. Try to build more cities, and be more agressive.
     
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