[C3C] Tinkering with victory conditions

[Fergei]

I'm finding my general lack of bloodlust (or being motivated by high scores) is resulting in the vanilla victory conditions making me passive and repetetive. Specifically a Space Race junkie since at Emperor/Demigod sort of level I can't see how I could possibly pull off a Cultural Victory without researching sort of meta game knowledge. I'm also finding it easy to pull off victories from miles behind due to the AI being really poor at targeting its own victory conditions, so the Space Race isn't a huge challenge. I avoid Diplomatic as it's too easy to manipulate and win (but I leave it on for the AI).

Essentially, I want to change things to:
- force me to keep my victory condition choice open depending on in game events
- consider government types without the trade bonus.
- risk losing if I'm not vigilant
- discover all the techs before the space race ends

The tweaks I'm going to try are detailed below and I'd be interested if anyone can see any flaws in them or can think of anything else that might achieve my aims. Or has their own modifications they enjoy.

1) lower Domination conditions to 33% for both population and territory. I may even go to 25% for both (large map, 17 Civs). Being an in game pacifist of sorts I'll likely never threaten the domination conditions. I appreciate neither figure constitutes true domination, but this is to force me to have to consider military options even if I'm on an island minding my own business. I will simply have to intervene if one or more AI starts to dominate and cannot rely on diplomacy alone (my standard tactic).

I'm hoping it makes relying on a space race and having no navy or major standing army risky for a human and therefore force me to consider more militaristic government types, which in turn will make achieving a Space Race victory more challenging (I won't tech as quickly and I'll be spending time building naval and aerial units). I will also have to engage with a lot more unit types to keep my rapid response force competitive if I need to deploy it.

2) extend the Space Race by having to make 3x of each module rather than 1x. I may change this to simply make the latest tech module requiring multiple, or make the last module take an enormous amount of time. I'm worried this might actually be counter to my objective of making losing in the late game more likely given the AI don't appear to modify their behaviour if you are 99% towards a space ship (assuming they are spying on you and can tell your progress). However, I feel I need to dramatically extend the Space Race period if I'm ever to sample the very last techs. With a longer space race, if I see the AI far ahead with the modules it will make a military response at my end viable (whereas with just 10x modules the human may not have time to prevent the AI victory?)

 

[tjs282]

(1) Domination is the one VC that the Civ3-AI is actually quite 'good' at achieving, so reducing the Domination percentages should probably be done cautiously. At least at Emp+, the first AI-Civ on a landmass to field a decent fast unit (e.g. Gallic Swords, Mounted Warriors, or Knights, Cavs, and UU-equivalents) will tend to build a stack of them and wipe out most/all of its immediate neighbours, and this becomes even more likely if a GA is triggered early on during that process.

Point is, on a Large/Huge Continents (or 60% Archi) map, where a single landmass can easily cover 30–40% of the total land, setting the Dom-limit at 33% might actually be low enough that you will lose the game before you've reached a sufficiently strong position (read: have sufficient cash/ techs!) to be able to exert your diplomatic influence, or — if it was e.g. the Iroquois or the Celts who went on a fast-unit rampage — possibly even before you've contacted (all) the other landmass(es)!

In my mod-that-will-likely-never-see-the-light-of-day, I was more focused on reducing the tedious grind, long after (Domination) victory had become inevitable, of playing out those extra turns to prove that I'd won. I therefore reduced both limits to 55% (and am considering dropping them further, to a simple majority of 51%).

(2) To force the Space-race go further into the Modern-Era tech-tree, the simplest option (that is, the one I chose, because I am simple!) would probably be to redistribute some/all of the components to other/ later techs. But since the Ship-Parts are in the Wonders/Improvements tab in the Editor, I also required them to be built in a town with an "aerospace industry", i.e. an Airport — which in turn also requires a Factory (as do most of the other Industrial/Modern buildings in my mod, so as to remove items from the build-list which I would never build — and the AI should never build! — in a non-core town) and Advanced Flight.

(Want a Scientific VC? Now I need to learn all the techs! The UN has also been set to require an Airport, and be built in a coastal town — just like New York IRL!)

 

[Fergei]

Excellent thanks. Space victory now requires all techs and a hefty number of produced modules to permit a military response. I'll see how it goes.

I'll try domination at 25% with the chance of getting egg on my face and have to revisit it, but I never get run away leaders and 25% is a big total on a map with 17 Civs. It's also possibly because I've balanced Civ traits a bit and always review maps and check starting points for all Civs (months before playing the map) so that each starting location has a viable start.

I also always play max land mass Arch. Whereas I imagine AI domination on pangaea is much more straightforward for them.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Always playing archipelago maps (or any single map type) runs the risk of repetitive play. I play continents maps most often, so the situation on the other landmass is always a surprise. Sometimes a pleasant surprise -- oh, look, they've settled into equilibrium and are not very advanced -- sometimes an unpleasant surprise -- Sumeria has how many size 12 cities?

I also choose Space Race victories most often, which is starting to feel "samey." By the time I build the UN, I've usually aggravated most AIs to where I would need to seriously manipulate the votes thru war alliances to win.

I like your ideas about reducing the domination limits. In those games where I choose a militaristic Civ, and I'm going for Domination, it's a grind to get from 60% to 66% to secure the victory. I also like the idea of building all the techs; I rarely do that. Having a few stealth fighters or stealth bombers around looks cool; building the Cure for Cancer feels good too.

 

[Fergei]

I tell a lie, I also do Continents with 70% water (which is very similar to Archipelago 60%). Part of my issue is I cannot get the situation everyone describes where if I load my .biq file via Civ Content the next 'new game' will automatically load with my custom settings. Every new game reverts to the default settings. So I always do custom maps.

Currently playing researching Feudalism and 7x Civs are industrial. So I wont be testing victory conditions in this one methinks! (Horrible starting position I should have quit immediately!).

 

[tjs282]

Part of my issue is I cannot get the situation everyone describes where if I load my .biq file via Civ Content the next 'new game' will automatically load with my custom settings.

This is very strange.

So long as you saved your modded .biq in the correct place, e.g. ...Civ3/Conquests/Scenarios/MyMod.biq, then loading "MyMod.biq" from Civ-Content should always get you a game with your modded rules.

And if the .biq itself does not include a premade map, then the very next screen you see should be the map-conditions interface, to give you a brand-new, randomly-generated, never-before-seen map.

So it makes me wonder, where do you have Civ3 installed? Because if it's in the system directory C:/ProgramFiles(x86)/.../Civ3/ , then this is almost certainly a VirtualStore problem, where the .biq that you thought you'd saved, has actually been stored somewhere the game can't find it.

And the simplest way to fix that, is to uninstall, and reinstall the game in another location on your hard-drive, e.g. C:/Games.

(While the system directory is the default install-location, it's certainly not the best option on PCs running Vista+ versions of Windoze — i.e. 99.9% of them, these days).

If you have the Steam-version of Civ3, @Lanzelot recently made a post with screenshots showing how to use the Steam-client to reinstall everything in a non-sensitive location with minimum effort — but unfortunately I don't remember where I saw that post (and I don't have Steam to test it myself).

 

[Lanzelot]

Found it again:

Another Civ3 Vanilla nooby question

So i am trying to play civilization 3 vanilla I have the steam version and got the no CD patch and put it in my Civ3 Complete folder and named it Civilization3 No CD but when i click on the exe it says no civ3 installation detected am i doing this wrong or is it even possible to get the steam...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Fergei]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to help. EDIT: Short story is I've got it working! . I've left the solution below incase anyone else experiences it.

Its the GOG one. There was a pre made map (Earth, so I could test things in an identical setup), File is saved in the correct directory. I wiped the map from the file and tried again. When I load it as Civ content it then takes me to the Civ select screen (no map screen) then crashes saying it cannot load enough starting locations (presumably trying a standard map instead of large).

So I created a new blank biq and imported rules and player settings from my template. Et viola. I need no longer obsess about maps unless playing multiplayer with a very competitive sibling that insists on fairness!

 

[jarred!]

I think lowering dom values might incentivize a player to go for those VCs, but too low of dom limits could lead to a loss from a civ you haven't contacted yet. Have you tried increasing cultural values of some later improvements or wonders to make a cultural victory faster?
You could also stipulate the player can't manipulate AI attitude by gifting old techs or extraneous resources for the purpose of a UN vote (player has to actually be a nice opponent the entire game).
I also think you have made SS victory unobtainable to the AI. You could add a few techs to the Modern Times that add buildings or resources (and make Aluminum and uranium more scarce) so SS parts are more difficult to build or you'll definitely need to go to war for resources. An example might be a synthetic chemistry tech which reveals a resin resource.

 

[Fergei]

I am completely ignorant of cultural victories. I never get anywhere near them and I never see an AI with a runaway culture lead that threatens victory. I'm not sure how to approach that to be honest. I suppose as you say, if I make mid to late game Wonders raise proportinately a lot more culture it can make this victory condition more viable as an outcome compared to Space or Domination. It would then be something I as a player would have to be aware of and potentially respond to if a tech advanced AI seemed to be running away with it in the late industrial era?

I get the hesitancy about Domination limits but I would flip it around and ask why would you want domination conditions to be the same regardless of map size, number of Civs, land mass etc etc. These variables massively impact the viability of AI domination and I guess i just want domination limits to reflect that. Maybe within a range of 25 to 50% depending on map settings.

To give a current example. I have the late medieval Iroquois on another continent on the other side of the planet from me at 15% for land mass and population with victory at 25%. He is about to destroy a 5% for both Zulu Civ that is being dogpiled - and the Iroquois should get to 18-20% following that war. But he has 3 other AIs on the same landmass, including the Americans of similar power who have Knights Templar. The Iroquois has also has settled a five city island on the other side of the world from their starting point, presumably by getting navigation first.

With 66% domination all of this is arguably irrelevant. I would just turtle until I hit a power spike to start picking off the 4x Civs sharing my continent until I am a superpower that can take advantage of the AI being a bit rubbish in the late game and stuff the Iroquois in another victory condition or grind out a domination myself.

But with 25% domination I must consider the risk of a domination loss if I turtle. So I am making the Iroquois's neighbours my preferred trading partners and prioritised Printing Press over Gunpowder so I can have a better picture of world maps in order to devise tactics. I'm considering rejecting the Iroquois next time he threatens me and letting him declare war, then forming an alliance of weaker Civs able to attack his 5 city colony before he can send a fleet across the world to defend it. Or perhaps I will aim for a pre-emptive solo attack on this colony or work on my diplomacy with the Americans to make an alliance or late game MPP with them as a deterrence that will reduce the Iroquois ability to achieve 25% domination?

Everyone is different but I like my mind to be filled with all these calculations with each turn.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I am completely ignorant of cultural victories. I never get anywhere near them and I never see an AI with a runaway culture lead that threatens victory. I'm not sure how to approach that to be honest. I suppose as you say, if I make mid to late game Wonders raise proportinately a lot more culture it can make this victory condition more viable as an outcome compared to Space or Domination. It would then be something I as a player would have to be aware of and potentially respond to if a tech advanced AI seemed to be running away with it in the late industrial era?

I get the hesitancy about Domination limits but I would flip it around and ask why would you want domination conditions to be the same regardless of map size, number of Civs, land mass etc etc. These variables massively impact the viability of AI domination and I guess i just want domination limits to reflect that. Maybe within a range of 25 to 50% depending on map settings.

Everyone is different but I like my mind to be filled with all these calculations with each turn.

For Domination, I understand your reasoning. You want to need to consider intervention, especially across the ocean, if an AI is moderately successful.

For Cultural Victories, remember there are two types.

• Single City: Build enough buildings and wonders, early enough for the millennium doubling effect, so that city achieves a cultural value > N. For standard map sizes and standard speed, N = 20,000. Although the AI love to build wonders and buildings, they rarely concentrate them in a single city. It's hard to promote this victory condition, unless there's a way to increase the culture for a wonder if there's another wonder in the city already.
• Entire Civ: Here, the AI tendency to build every building everywhere works in your favor. One of the criteria is that the culture for the entire civ > N; for standard map sizes and standard speed, N = 100,000. Boosting the culture for buildings and wonders would increase the likelihood that an AI might get close to this number and you would need to consider intervention. My concern is a second criterion: I seem to recall that the victor has to have 2x the culture of the second place civ. That has meant that I needed to get 120,000 culture in some games to beat an AI who had 55K. If that's true, and all the AI are amassing culture because you've boosted the buildings, then perhaps *none* of them might actually win since their cultural scores would all be close to one another. Perhaps only boost certain buildings, such as Temples or Cathedrals, so the Religious AI would accumulate culture faster than the others?

 

[Fergei]

For Cultural Victories, remember there are two types.

• Single City: Build enough buildings and wonders, early enough for the millennium doubling effect, so that city achieves a cultural value > N. For standard map sizes and standard speed, N = 20,000. Although the AI love to build wonders and buildings, they rarely concentrate them in a single city. It's hard to promote this victory condition, unless there's a way to increase the culture for a wonder if there's another wonder in the city already.
• Entire Civ: Here, the AI tendency to build every building everywhere works in your favor. One of the criteria is that the culture for the entire civ > N; for standard map sizes and standard speed, N = 100,000. Boosting the culture for buildings and wonders would increase the likelihood that an AI might get close to this number and you would need to consider intervention. My concern is a second criterion: I seem to recall that the victor has to have 2x the culture of the second place civ. That has meant that I needed to get 120,000 culture in some games to beat an AI who had 55K. If that's true, and all the AI are amassing culture because you've boosted the buildings, then perhaps *none* of them might actually win since their cultural scores would all be close to one another. Perhaps only boost certain buildings, such as Temples or Cathedrals, so the Religious AI would accumulate culture faster than the others?

Yeah, I think the AI habit of making all the buildings in all settlements is what makes AI culture victories something I never see (and never get close to myself). If you have 12+ Civs its really unlikely you wont have at least 2x AI Civs generating massive culture through standard religious and science buildings.

So I imagine its why I'd have to stack the culture points almost exclusively on Wonders (and possibly Research Labs since they are so late) that the second placed AI Civ might not have an opportunity to build. That way if a very advanced Civ manages to avoid war (freeing up shields for Wonders rather than military units) then they would be a big threat to beat me, potentially as early as mid-medieval age if I was to reduce the culture victory score (which I think I can do although I may be getting confused with victory points). That way an AI Civ stuck on a large island of it's own (and therefore geographically hampered for a Domination victory) they can still be a threat (yes, I am basically a Civ masochist!).

As with most things I'll probably intentionally overdo the changes then work backwards if it turns the game into a mess and I've lost before I've learnt Republic. Thanks for the thoughts, I think I'm getting an idea of what I'd want to do. Focus on the double 2nd place score rather than the overall total score.

On a tangent I'll be experimenting with a very late game overpowered futuristic inspired government type to try and persuade the AI back away from war mongering governments without the trade bonus to make Cultural and Space victories more credible for them in the very late game (when I imagine they will struggle to push for domination as everyone should have infantry or mechaniszed infantry).

 

[vorlon_mi]

As you test, consider having the Inca as one of your AI. In my experience, they *love* to build wonders. In those games where I'm going for a Cultural victory, they are often my closest competition. I need to attack them and reduce their cultural footprint.

 

[tjs282]

Have you tried increasing cultural values of some later improvements or wonders to make a cultural victory faster?

Since the AI Settles so loosely, to make them better Cultural competitors, I would rather tend towards adding / boosting Cultural outputs from early-game buildings, to take more advantage of that 1000-year doubling effect.

I never see an AI with a runaway culture lead that threatens victory.

That might be a symptom of playing at Monarch, though...?

In a Demigod game a couple of months back, I got surprised by a French 100K win. IIRC, it turned out Joanie had somehow managed to snaffle a disproportionate share of the Ancient/ Medieval GWonders.

I mean, I was likely going to lose that game anyway, but was rather expecting/resigned to a loss by (French?) Domination.

It's hard to promote this victory condition, unless there's a way to increase the culture for a wonder if there's another wonder in the city already.

No, not exactly — but you can for example force some/ most/ all of the Wonders (Great + Small) to be built in the capital, by requiring the Palace as a prerequisite.

If going for 20K, a human player might concentrate their Wonder-builds like that anyway — but the AI won't. If any given Civ can only build one GW at a time, such changes might also go some way towards killing Wonder-Cascades (and would also make prebuilding more difficult for the human!).

A potential caveat is that the AIs which start with e.g. Masonry or Bronze-Working may then de-prioritise early Settlers/ military in favour of a Big Shiny Object, making them (much) more vulnerable to an early rush by an opponent.

Perhaps only boost certain buildings, such as Temples or Cathedrals, so the Religious AI would accumulate culture faster than the others?

Also an option.

Yeah, I think the AI habit of making all the buildings in all settlements is what makes AI culture victories something I never see (and never get close to myself).

Yeah, that's true.

For the human, especially at higher levels, the "best/quickest" way to win a 100K vic is to conquer a couple of neighbours as early as possible, plant city-pox towns across the captured territories, and then (cash- or whip-)rush all the generic Ancient/Medieval Cultural buildings in every pox-town. So the bigger the map, the more neighbours you have to conquer to make this work.

Conversely, since the AI-Civs are all using the same/similar build-choice algorithms, it's difficult for anyone but a runaway-AI to clear the "double the Culture of the next-best Civ" hurdle — but a runaway is likely to pass the Domination-limits before they achieve a 100K, making such AI Cultural-wins rare enough to be surprising (as noted above!).