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Tip: Suicide barrage cannons.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by muxec, Jun 4, 2009.

  1. muxec

    muxec Prince

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    I found this tip somewhere in other thread and tried it. It worked so great that I decoded it deserves a separate thread.

    If your already promoted city raider siege unit has less than 60% chance to withdraw and you have extra siege units in your stack not promoted yet - promote them with barrage to suicide them. You deal less damage to top defender yet more damage to everyone else. This often saves you a few units.

    If you attack enemy in open (no city raider) while Drill slightly increases the survival chance barrage is usually better, especially if you have enough normal attack units to finish damaged enemies.

    I'm not sure about when to use drill, probably you should use it if you have too many promotions (like with Cyrus) you can make CR3D4 siege that is great against defenders at least slightly scratched. Still not sure how it compares to CR3B3D1.
     
  2. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    You also lose half the benefit of Drill, since cannons are immune to collateral anyway.

    But if you need to kill a single unit outside a city, Drill is the only useful promotion.
     
  3. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

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    In BTS at least (don't know in Vanilla) collateral from bombers still hurts siege
    (sort of relevant question, does flankiing get reduced by collateral reduction?)
    Again in BTS Drill on siege is nerfed by the fact you can only get 1XP and can't kill and again by the lack of defensive bonuses and general low base :strength:
     
  4. mike p

    mike p King

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    Is Barrage really better than City Raider for keeping your units alive? Collateral damage to the rest of the units in a city means a whole lot less when you can't scratch the top defending CGIII Drill I Rifleman on a hill. Yes I'm looking at you, Sitting Bull.

    I usually promote CR almost exclusively for siege. Though sometimes Drill/Shock catapults are better in the open. Sometimes I think you're better off suiciding a non collateral unit with a higher base strength first, so that enough damage gets done to the best defender that you can start winning down the line. Generally, after the first two or three successful siege attacks, the rest are easy thanks to colateral damage even without barrage, and CR makes it easier for your siege to survive. Once things are weakened so much that barrage promoted units are still likely to survive, the need for barrage is usually past, or you have such a tech lead that you could promote your siege Drill-Accuracy-Medic and still crush.
     
  5. Laurwin

    Laurwin Prince

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    uhm I use city raider first and the second promotion is usually the strength one (drill?)
     
  6. GenerallyGreat

    GenerallyGreat Prince

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    If I go into my first war with 20 cannons, I still have 15 for my second attack and I'd rather my survivors were made up of CR2 and CR3 than any other combo.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Drill on siege is a rare thing. I've used it in a situation of a cannon attacking a grenadier + some weaker stuff in the stack. Drill II gave the cannon > 50% odds (around 60% actually) rather than in the 40% range, and everything other than the grenadier was toast either way so collateral was of minor importance. Might as well keep the thing alive and possibly use it to bombard later.

    Usually though, barrage for large stack battles or CR vs cities is a better call.

    One thing I'm not clear on is whether barrage ever becomes better than CR when attacking stacks in a city. Could a very large stack in a city make barrage superior for the increased collateral?
     
  8. muxec

    muxec Prince

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    Top defender will be killed by the second wave of siege with CR.

    Example (no real probability calculations, just intuition).

    CG3D1 Archer, CG2D1 archer C1 spear and C1 sword defending on hills. 4 catapults and 4 swords attacking. If first two catapults are barrage and next two are CR first two catapults deal little damage to top CG3D1 and significant damage to other 3 units CG2D1 archer among them. Than you attack with CR cannons with CG3D1 still being the top defender and almost kill him with the last pult surviving. Than your 4 swords easily take the city. If you use 4 CR catapults after 2 attacks sword and spear are likely to become top defenders with CG3D1 archer not fully damaged after 4 catapults.
     
  9. Calder

    Calder Warlord

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    I usually have Barrage II promoted seige with as many added CR promotions as I can get during the melee era (Barrage II gives +30% col. damage, +10% vs melee), and once gunpowder units arrive, strive to have Barrage III with added CR promotions (Barrage III gives +50% col. damage, +10% vs gunpowder).
     
  10. Laurwin

    Laurwin Prince

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    anyone got an educated opinion about which promotions are best against longbows in cities? I guess its usually Sitting Bull's/ Churchill's city garrison 2 longbows that make the bulk of the most annoying defenders :D
     
  11. nanomage

    nanomage Longbowman

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    do not know what you mean by educated opinion (victory rate? ratio of lost cannons to all? this all may vary depending on stack composition, both yours and 0pponents)

    i'd say that if primary goal is taking cities (and against AI it is), CR is always better than anything else you can have on your siege (drill and barrage are the only other options afaik)
    it may depend if you are going to face a grenadier/rifle stack in field, but anyway, you always have some cannons on which promotion is irrelevant (those that you use to bombard).
    these may very well become barrage if needed and suicide against gren/cuirassier/rifleman stack in field.
     
  12. nanomage

    nanomage Longbowman

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    sorry, double posted
     
  13. Laurwin

    Laurwin Prince

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    well, I guess I gotta try promoting at least some of my cannons with barrage, mainly because at the second promotion the city bombarding bonus promotion becomes available, I guess it could be useful.

    But generally I tend to use this kind of sneaky siege tactic where I first bombard to 0, and depending on the best defender; if there's only like one good defender, I tend to use a regular attacker first instead of a siege unit that usually has weaker odds of defeating the best defender.

    so in the best case I win and kill the best defender and thus I lose no units yet, in the worst case I lose the unit and knock out the best defender but I spare some of my siege units (which aren't draftable naturally)

    then I start bombarding them with collateral dmg, and I start mowing them down with other attacking units, but I tend to leave the last unit intact in the city, and wait to see if the A.I. keeps pouring units into this "slaughter house".

    If it does, all the better they will still lose the city and all the possible reinforcements sent to there, which in turn weaken their other cities

    cunning, eh? :D
     
  14. nanomage

    nanomage Longbowman

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    ithink the tactics of leaving one defender might be useful in some cases.
    however, i'm no particularly good advisor in all this cannons' business: i only have used them against LB's/muskets and here the promotions barely matter.

    the thing is, accuracy promotion (which i believe you refer to as "city bombarding bonus promotion") is available after CRI too.
    so, actually, i never ever promoted my cannons to barrage (and accuracy too ;) ) CR ones just do their k\job fine and have a decent survival rate.
     

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