Tips from players who already won on high difficulties?

[DrCron]

Hi everyone,

I'm only now starting to play on Civilization difficulty, hoping to move to Humankind soon. Are there any things I should know, especially to do better during the classical era?

So far it feels like I can play neolithic and ancient eras more or less ok, but in the classical era the AI will already attack me with strong units and I find myself in trouble. Some AIs will simply never sign a non-aggression pact, so even if I stay out of their land they attack me in neutral territory.

I'm considering disbanding most scouts early on, to get a huge boost in population (it's not hard to finish the neolithic with at least 7-8 of them), since they are useless against anything other than wild animals on high difficulties. I'll just keep 2 or 3 to auto-explore and get the curiosities, while I turn the others into population, to eventually get 1-2 armies with stronger units.

Do you guys consider this might work?

Any other useful tips for surviving the classical era?

Regarding the ancient era, I'm mostly playing with the Egyptians, since Mycaneans and Harappans are usually the first ones to be gone (and the AI never picks the high production Egypt, so it's useful to consistently practice early strategies with the same culture). I either get 2 cities (with 1 additional territory each) on my own, or just the capital and then conquer my 2nd city from an independent faction. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[NombreyApellido]

sounds like a good plan

positional combat is the key in higher difficulty settings. when fighting against a numbers or tech superior culture, find a choke point, build defenses and piss you neighbors off so they come and fight in your terms... while this is happening you can buy the time to unlock mounted warfare and get those scouts upgraded

 

[Buktu]

I had the same problem in my first games on humankind, especially if my neighbour picked hunns/mongols. I figured out that my science was too weak early on so I switched the legacy trade from food per pop to science per pop for lots of free science without the need to do anything for it. This should work especially well if you settle your scounts in your cities early on.
So far I am doing good with that change but this might also be due to the fact that I play continents instead of pangea this time.

 

[Siptah]

For me, classical is also the critical point of each campaign, as this is when I fight/have to fight wars while I’m usually inferior.
Terrain is really the key, I agree. Be careful if you attack on the strategical map - sometimes it‘s better to start the battle from another side, even if this takes an additional turn.
Luck is a factor, and it‘s good to acknowledge that imho. If my neighbor is Huns (somehow 75% of my games), I want a culture with a classical spearman unit. If the persona has chosen +3 on emblematic units, that doesn‘t help too much though. On the other hand, losing a war isn‘t actually that bad - just surrender, which means losing a territory, some money, or become a vassal. Don‘t be afraid of these things, it‘s all recoverable. I rather lose a war than over-invest in a war I can hardly win and that would trail on a long time.
And I also agree that it gets easier with continents compared to Pangaea, and also with larger maps when everyone borders multiple nations compared to small or tiny.

 

[fortydayweekend]

sounds like a good plan

positional combat is the key in higher difficulty settings. when fighting against a numbers or tech superior culture, find a choke point, build defenses and piss you neighbors off so they come and fight in your terms... while this is happening you can buy the time to unlock mounted warfare and get those scouts upgraded

This is the key. Sometimes it's better to turn all your scouts into a unique unit or a counter to your opponent though (e.g. you wouldn't build Horsemen if your opponent has lots of spears or even worse, Immortals )

I like to have one "aggressive" neighbour and one peaceful neighbour (you can often buy a non-agg pact for 100 gold). Scouts can operate near the peaceful neighbour looking for curiosities, and keep a couple nearer your borders but with view of any arriving stacks.

AI pathing is predictable, run a path from your border city to their capital and see which way they are likely to come. Look for terrain that favours your troops. Here's a few lessons I've learned:
- Huns/Markabatas are incredibly dangerous on narrow mountain passes or 1-tile gaps because they can hit and run, and the AI uses this to full advantage. Engage them with spears in wide open plains
- Conversely, Immortals are dangerous on open plains. Fight them where they can only come one at a time and whittle them down with ranged, while defending with cycling swordsmen
- If you have ranged troops, find a cliff top they can sit on top of (or lake they can shoot over) so they can shoot without being attacked. If you're fighting ranged troops fight on flat open land you can outflank on (or where their archers can't even shoot without putting themselves at risk).

You want to have overwhelming numbers as much as possible in every battle, which means
- knowing where the AI is (use scouts)
- knowing where the AI is going (it's usually the same path every time)
- before you can bring reinforcements, you need to make sure your 4 units outclass their 4 units, so only fight with your most powerful units and/or specific counters. If they have scout riders use spears etc. The AI often spams one type of unit so you can plan ahead right from the start of Ancient.
- after you have good units (either UU or a counter to theirs) beeline the tech that lets you bring reinforcements. If you know where the AI is it's simple to outnumber them in every battle after that, barring maybe their first big attack
- try to pick off isolated AI (and avoid having your own stacks get isolated - the AI will target them)
- try to fight your first battle "strategically-defensively but tactically-offensive" - i.e. you've set up your troops in the best terrain and are waiting for the AI to come to you, but if you can initiate the attack yourself you'll get the first move. Also you can try attacking from different angles looking at the deployment area preview to make sure you've got the right spot.
- you can fight defensively in your city if you need to, you'll get fortifications and some extra troops - but the city production will stop while the battle is going so it's not ideal. Maybe if it was a small border city with low production and had good terrain but you want your capital to be free to keep building troops and infrastructure.

It's worth investing population into having overwhelming numbers, you can always re-settle troops later. The more troops you have the more you can keep cycling fresh ones into the front line and so you'll take fewer casualties. Every casualty is a lost population and while you'll inevitably lose a few, keeping as many alive as possible will pay off later.

You can build the actual armies relatively quickly and they cost maintenance, so your initial focus should be building up food and industry with a bit of research, rather than troops. You get a bit of warning before war breaks out (demands - and look at the enemy war support) so you can leave building your stacks until the last minute so you don't tank your economy. If you have to build a lot of troops you might need to move a few workers into Money which will hurt your research.

To win the war you need to get your opponent to 0 which you do by winning battles and occupying their cities. They gain war support for every battle they win, so try your best to avoid getting caught in situations where you lose or have to retreat as this will prolong the war.

After you win, if you are occupying one of their cities you should be able to take it from them - this is a huge boost to your early game as it saves 500 influence and is often earlier than the opportunity to take an independent city. Look at early war as an investment

I had the same problem in my first games on humankind, especially if my neighbour picked hunns/mongols. I figured out that my science was too weak early on so I switched the legacy trade from food per pop to science per pop for lots of free science without the need to do anything for it. This should work especially well if you settle your scounts in your cities early on.
So far I am doing good with that change but this might also be due to the fact that I play continents instead of pangea this time.

That's a really good idea, I think that's the best move.

If you take the food bonus with early 6 pop (in 2 cities) that's 6 extra food. You can run a researcher for 6 science, and they're eating 8 food - you lose 2 food.

If you take science bonus that's just 6 science, and the pop can do whatever they like.

Or Industry bonus would be good too for the same reason. But don't take the food bonus!

 

[DrCron]

- Huns/Markabatas are incredibly dangerous on narrow mountain passes or 1-tile gaps because they can hit and run, and the AI uses this to full advantage. Engage them with spears in wide open plains
- Conversely, Immortals are dangerous on open plains. Fight them where they can only come one at a time and whittle them down with ranged, while defending with cycling swordsmen

I found proper ways to deal with Immortals using choke points: one melee in the choke point and archers behind seems to do the trick. But in my last attempt I tried to attack the huns* and it looks like their horse archers are ridiculously OP for their time (they have roughly the same strenght as the mongolian ones that come one era later??). They are too strong for classic era spears, they can hit and run, and honestly I have no idea how to deal with them. Have you actually won battles with spearmen against the huns? Or did you have medieval pikemen?

*I saved before moving my troops, so my plan right now is to reload and wait until they declar war on me or until I have pikemen. Not sure if anything else would work. My other neighbor is weaker, but they are also the non-aggressive ones giving me my only alliance, so I don't want to attack them.

 

[fortydayweekend]

I found proper ways to deal with Immortals using choke points: one melee in the choke point and archers behind seems to do the trick. But in my last attempt I tried to attack the huns* and it looks like their horse archers are ridiculously OP for their time (they have roughly the same strenght as the mongolian ones that come one era later??). They are too strong for classic era spears, they can hit and run, and honestly I have no idea how to deal with them. Have you actually won battles with spearmen against the huns? Or did you have medieval pikemen?

*I saved before moving my troops, so my plan right now is to reload and wait until they declar war on me or until I have pikemen. Not sure if anything else would work. My other neighbor is weaker, but they are also the non-aggressive ones giving me my only alliance, so I don't want to attack them.

Yep, but it took me a while to work out the tactics. Persia is probably essential if you have an aggressive Hun neighbour, and even Immortals will lose 1-on-1 to a Hun on Civ/HK levels. You have to outnumber them and fight them on open land so you can surround them, and you will take losses. I suppose you might be able to do it with normal spears but you'd have to bring a LOT of them.

If you have the option to keep the Huns peaceful that's probably a better idea. Don't start a fight, forgive every grievance, agree to their treaties, trade strategics, buy a non-agg pact etc. You can fight them later when you have pikes and guns. Your weaker neighbour sounds like a good target tbh.

 

[NombreyApellido]

war elephants wipe the floor with them

build a garrison/outpost to take the fortification bonus, use tree and building cover, unit adjacency and elevation/river. also take a civic/religion strength bonus and keep checking their unit satus after every narrative event, sometimes the AI gets a tough penalty as feeble

lure their stacks towards an edge tile so they can only deploy one or two units at at time

i liked them better when they had two weak strikes with the final, optional one consuming all remaining movement

 

[DrCron]

Yep, but it took me a while to work out the tactics. Persia is probably essential if you have an aggressive Hun neighbour, and even Immortals will lose 1-on-1 to a Hun on Civ/HK levels. You have to outnumber them and fight them on open land so you can surround them, and you will take losses. I suppose you might be able to do it with normal spears but you'd have to bring a LOT of them.

If you have the option to keep the Huns peaceful that's probably a better idea. Don't start a fight, forgive every grievance, agree to their treaties, trade strategics, buy a non-agg pact etc. You can fight them later when you have pikes and guns. Your weaker neighbour sounds like a good target tbh.

Yeah, I think you're right, I should have changed the plan the moment I saw the huns appearing.

i liked them better when they had two weak strikes with the final, optional one consuming all remaining movement

Yeah, I think they need to be reworked. It makes sense for them to be strong, but right now they seem too close to the Mongolian horde that comes a full era later.

 

[Siptah]

I think it‘s rather the Mongolian Hordes that need a buff.

 

[mrjepson]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is you can pay gold to instantly heal your troops if they are in your territory. So if you can use the advice above about positioning your troops in your land in a good spot to catch their incoming army, keep your guys alive, instantly heal your entire army, then march into their land the same turn this can have a huge impact. I've even had my high movement armies duck back over into my land to instant heal and get back in there.

 

[DrCron]

UPDATE:

So i finally won on Civilization difficulty, next is Humankind. I was only leading during the full game in production (Egypt + Maya is a strong production start that the AI never seems to steal from you). In fame (and pretty much everything else) I was 2nd almost all game long. I took some territory the leader had in my continent during the industrial era (I never had a proper navy so I never attacked them in their continent), and then I started getting pretty much every fame point during the last era (with the Soviets). I was behind by almost 1K before the contemporary era, and ended up ahead by more than 4K. Once my main rival starting losing wars, they just couldn't keep up with anything else (techs, wonders...).

Thanks everyone for the input, I think I'm getting the hand of it. It looks like it happens just as in CIV, with one rival just being way stronger than everyone else in most games. Let's see how it goes in humankind difficulty.

 

[Taefin]

Oh good luck, I bet you’ll have fun at HK! I usually try to get 3-4 stacks up early 50/50 range/melee. And usually try to get ~90 production ASAP to train units in 1 turn. Taking Aksumites in classical has saved me more than once, having such a strong/cheap EU and the gold to feed the swarm and pay upgrade costs. But so many of the classics cultures are great!

Hoplites in open ground also destroys Huns, they deal 30-40 damage but with even numbers (I’m open terrain as others have said) the battle goes your way pretty quickly. Won even on the defense. If you force even a few of their shots to be uphill they struggle to kill units. Huns actually got eliminated in my current game, though often they take much of their corner of the world.

 

[DrCron]

Oh good luck, I bet you’ll have fun at HK! I usually try to get 3-4 stacks up early 50/50 range/melee. And usually try to get ~90 production ASAP to train units in 1 turn. Taking Aksumites in classical has saved me more than once, having such a strong/cheap EU and the gold to feed the swarm and pay upgrade costs. But so many of the classics cultures are great!

Hoplites in open ground also destroys Huns, they deal 30-40 damage but with even numbers (I’m open terrain as others have said) the battle goes your way pretty quickly. Won even on the defense. If you force even a few of their shots to be uphill they struggle to kill units. Huns actually got eliminated in my current game, though often they take much of their corner of the world.

Thanks! I won my first HK game during the weekend, but it was 6 factions in a large map, so more empty space (meaning more independt factions for "free" cities and no early rushes). Now I'm trying to play with 8 factions and it's a different story. I'm also picking all of the expert leaders (and one advanced, since I need 7 total) and they destroy the independents almost immediately. I pretty much was forced to play the Zhou every game, since these leaders also pick the Egyptians before I leave the neolithic era. For classical I've been trying different things (even the huns once, since they were available). I haven't tried the Aksumites yet, but if they're that good I'll give them a shot.

 

[PSG]

Egyptians -> Persians -> Khmer -> Moghuls -> Siam - Japan
Japan at the end is what saved my bacon in one game. I turned my industry into pure tech and finished the tech tree at 450 turns out of 600. (I don't see how people could stand to play a 75 turn game) Industry + influence is key to the game...that and many many MANY commons centers. Make sure you take the civic that gives commons centers a food and gold bonus.

 

[fortydayweekend]

Egyptians -> Persians -> Khmer -> undecided atm -> Siam - Japan
Japan at the end is what saved my bacon in one game. I turned my industry into pure tech and finished the tech tree at 450 turns out of 600. (I don't see how people could stand to play a 75 turn game) Industry + influence is key to the game...that and many many MANY commons centers. Make sure you take the civic that gives commons centers a food and gold bonus.

Commons Quarters also get a double bonus from Quarters that have 2 uses (e.g. Baray) so if you plan and put them between those you don't need as many.

I found that stability wasn't an issue after getting luxury manufactories, but my cities were only 5 or 6 territories each.

 

[Taefin]

A tip for winning, provided you survive classical (ie the fun part of the game) is not to delay aggression past the medieval and early modern. Trying to cut off the leader’s momentum in these eras is very helpful toward catching up, unless you get a very powerful engine going. Unless I get strong money and influence output I struggle get enough stars to catch up peacefully. But my first game I built up my army and it wasn’t ready to invade until late industrial when the game was already decided. Ostensibly you can stay in eras to get more stars, but often many of them are not accessible within reasonable time.

Also, my 8 player regular map ended at 20k pollution, so make sure to plant some trees if you want to play to the end, as the AI really pumps out the co2 at HK. With a few perks giving bonus industry on forest tiles, planting trees can even be the fastest way to grow industry for a segment of the game.

 

[fortydayweekend]

A tip for winning, provided you survive classical (ie the fun part of the game) is not to delay aggression past the medieval and early modern. Trying to cut off the leader’s momentum in these eras is very helpful toward catching up, unless you get a very powerful engine going. Unless I get strong money and influence output I struggle get enough stars to catch up peacefully. But my first game I built up my army and it wasn’t ready to invade until late industrial when the game was already decided. Ostensibly you can stay in eras to get more stars, but often many of them are not accessible within reasonable time.

Also, my 8 player regular map ended at 20k pollution, so make sure to plant some trees if you want to play to the end, as the AI really pumps out the co2 at HK. With a few perks giving bonus industry on forest tiles, planting trees can even be the fastest way to grow industry for a segment of the game.

I'm playing an 8-culture Normal size large Pangaea and it's total chaos. Everyone has been at war with someone, Siptah's Hun/Aztecs are at war with 4 other AI. There are very few surviving trade routes. I've just survived Victoria's camel archer invasion by building a ton of Shotelai. 100 turns in and I've barely built any makers quarters (decent economy though from Aksumites). Zhou Academies have kept me up with tech but I'm starting to fall behind. I went Khmer because i thought it was necessary (and I have a lot of rivers). Finally at peace and I can focus on building but I'm 3rd in fame and far behind the 2 largest AI in terms of pop, industry, and tech.

I think I need to press the attack on the leaders or at least get some more land (I have 3 cities in 12 territories) but it's hard to work out whether to build up for a bit and try to get a tech lead for a musket/rifle rush or just Always Be Warring with whatever is on hand and try to win battles by outmaneuvering the AI.

 

[DrCron]

.that and many many MANY commons centers. Make sure you take the civic that gives commons centers a food and gold bonus.

Unless you play with the Zhou and eventually Poland. I got this set up almost by accident (I was about to conquer when moving eras and Poland was the only milistaristic culture available) and I built almos no commons centers whatsoever. The stability you get with the combination of these two cultures is insane.

 

[PSG]

Unless you play with the Zhou and eventually Poland. I got this set up almost by accident (I was about to conquer when moving eras and Poland was the only milistaristic culture available) and I built almos no commons centers whatsoever. The stability you get with the combination of these two cultures is insane.

Poland is great with the winged hussars. Can build up a ton of influence with commons centers so building them is not a bad thing,...Lost another game last night to Kim Kardashian :/ Fame determining the victor is just plain awful.