Title hacked..........

[J F Muggs]

Still don't get why people want to cheat though...<snip>... And when coming to a forum and asking for advice, and having edited the map already, I then wonder what else is or will be edited. If you get unlucky in combat, will defenders be removed? Something else?
...<snip>...
The comment about regenerating maps for the HoF is fair enough, though for me at least I don't regenerate a whole lot. Get a decent start location and go with that. But then all these exploits and waiting for super lucky events is what is turning me off 'competitive' play in Civ4 anyway.

Okay. I get that you don't get it.

Oh, wait. I don't get that you don't get it. You admit regenerating maps yourself though it's not "a whole lot". And why bring up any question of question of cheating" as a result of combat results when my original post related ONLY to planning about the location of City #2? I gather that it's also acceptable for you "come to a forum" and comment judgementally, not in direct response to an original post in a thread presenting a specific situation and question?

I'm not being sensitive here. I'm merely pointing out you've added NOTHING positive to the thread while insinuating that your way is the best (and only) way. You've injected a personal Rant totally irrelevant to the original question despite writing:

It's a single player game so people can do what they want. That is fine.

Saying

Anyway, good luck with the map. Hopefully it turns out well for you. From my perspective though, when I know people have cheated, it makes it much less interesting and enticing to try to help....<snip>...Not really intended for Muggs in this thread for the most part, just the way society have evolved.

is akin to a left-handed compliment - "No, you don't look FAT in that dress <sneer>". Splitting apart the snide remarks in your post doesn't make it any less obvious that you are actually being just that - snide and denigrating. As you wrote, "good luck with" that. (yes, I realize what I just wrote was at least as snide as some of your comments.)

I think I'll just IGNORE future posts from you in this thread though you've made reasonable comments in others. It'll save electrons.

 

[6K Man]

Add me to the list of players who use WB to make starts more interesting. Why keep regenerating until you find something you like, when you can customize the game instantly? I don’t play enough games of Civ4 to have time to play out every start in the hope of finding a “fun” one. And like rah, I try to keep my eyes off the map details in WorldBuilder (I put an index card over the minimap and zoom in on my starting location to keep surrounding lands unseen), as exploring might be the best part of the game.

I suppose I might be less inclined to find stigma in playing a WorldBuilt start because I remember playing Civ2 succession games 15 years ago, when it was commonplace to create unusually difficult custom starts in order to make the game more challenging or interesting for the players. Back then, Civ2 Deity was too easy, so we’d create maps where the human player started on a 1-tile island in the middle of the ocean, or the AIs each started with 3 Settlers. Stuff like that.

Having said all that, I don’t quite see why you’d be looking for strategy tips when playing an edited map. Seeking strategy tips implies that you’re looking to get better at the game, and you can’t measure improvement on a cooked map. Besides, everything I’ve read here suggests that tip-providers prefer to give advice on games with standard settings: Normal speed, standard size, no weird settings. People aren’t invested in providing advice on games/settings they can’t relate to.

Moi-même, I claim no plaudits for “beating” a WorldBuilt start. If I wanted to compare my game to someone else’s, I’d play HoF. And if you asked me what my true Civ4 skill level is, I couldn’t tell you. Doesn’t matter to me.

 

[J F Muggs]

@6K_Man

Seeking strategy tips implies that you’re looking to get better at the game, and you can’t measure improvement on a cooked map.

I have to disagree with the premise here. You've never replayed a start? Knowing things from having scouted 30 turns out from the start isn't equivalent to "cooking the map" in ANY sense? Never replayed a saved game further along in time to see if making a different decision would have yielded a different, more beneficial, result?

If you re-read the original post, you'll see that I didn't ask for any "strategy tips". I asked what others would do as far as planning the location of their 2nd City. Big difference in my mind.

I happen to learn by trying something, examining the results, then backing up and trying something else - whether the results were "positive" or "negative". YMMV

FWIW, I mentioned I'd replayed this start 3 times.... That doesn't count the multiple "time sections" I've replayed within those "starts". The "ultimate" outcomes of each game varied widely in terms of tech advances, amt of land controlled, # of cities settled/captured, etc. Wide variation!

On a less responding-to-a-single-poster note:
I was hoping for a few more constructive "on point" replies, but the "on point" ones I've gotten were enough for me to (re)start a 4th and even a 5th time. WB allowed me to "Sacrifice a Game Turn" to try the SIP/settle 1E of my original start position to see if THAT particular piece of advice made any significant difference ---- so far, it doesn't seem to have but that could be due to the rest of MY early game play. Shrug....

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I asked what others would do as far as planning the location of their 2nd City.

One item that I did not see mentioned, but which I believe to be relevant, is that I would put Farms on the Flood Plains squares that are within City 2's big fat cross.

When you see Flood Plains, it intuitive feels ideal to Cottage-up the place, but in practice, it takes many turns to be able to grow your Cities large enough to work those Cottages while also having enough Happiness to work them all. Without a dedicated Food Resource for City 2, and assuming that you'll want to work at least 2 Gold Mines, I'd highly favour Farmed Flood Plains squares, even if that means Farming some of the Flood Plains squares that are within my capital's big fat cross. Further, excess Food means being able to work the good squares while also being able to whip from time to time, and whipping can be an efficient form of production.

With 5 Gold Mines, you will probably also want 2 Cities to work them, rather than trying to have one City alone working them.

Whether or not you burn any Flood Plains by settling on them will depend upon other factors, such as whether other Food Resources are available nearby.

In fact, my actual playing of this start would be to strictly "keep scouting until I find all of the nearby Food Resources before even considering choosing a final settling location," so I will not actually suggest a location of where to place City 2 and will instead suggest that until you scout more of the nearby area, planning an exact location would be a sub-optimal way of playing.

Then, factors such as whether the City can grow large while also working Gold Mines, can be coastal, need or need not have Fresh Water (such as via the Oasis), need or need not be Riverside to build a Levee, can have some Forests for early-game goals (Chopping or extra Healthiness), and how much of a drain it will have economically due to the distance from my capital will all play a role in deciding where to settle.

Des Hills Gold Mines only appear to be 1 Hammer short of Plains Hills Gold Mines, i.e. earning 2 Hammers, while still providing 8 Commerce for Financial, Non-Riverside Mines and 9 Commerce for Financial, Riverside Mines, so I would want to be working them early and regularly. I'd also want to prioritize Granaries for the Gold-Mine Cities, so that the little amount of Food that I earn will be put to efficient use.

 

[Fippy]

Pangaea says that he thinks it can be problematic once peoples edit something in games (for their advantage only), cos they cannot stop anymore and accept tuff losses. We all know that's correct, can be difficult.

He has neither attacked you personally (Muggs), or stated that only "his way" works.
He gave his thoughts, so did you now, you (almost aggressively) point out you want only this and that..
enuf drama over nothing.

 

[J F Muggs]

Let's be honest, Fippy.
Questions asked generally carry expectations of relevance with respect to any responses. Both direct statements and snide implications convey meaning. As with your own post above, I didn't feel there was any relevance to the original question while the tenor and sense of his posts (to me and at least two other posters) were as sneering and distasteful as the "aggressiveness" you picked up in my responses. You obviously are a Master of the Concept yourself as shown in your post. Good for you.

The "drama created" wasn't by me; you only added to whatever drama there was. I considered the matter closed - any further post he makes in this thread will be ignored by me as it's of no value to me now.

I always welcome relevant responses to my original question.

As I don't expect any more relevant responses from here on in, I'm now "out" of my own thread.

Ya'll have a nice day.

 

[cseanny]

@J F Muggs, I've taken at least a year plus break from playing the game but it's still the same users posting, and imho, civfanatics is by far and away one of the most thoughtful, insightful, and genuine community you'll ever meet. It's a great family man so stick around. Little stuff is bound to happen and it smooths out over time.

cheers.

 

[Pangaea]

Wow. Not much more I need to say really. The implosion speaks for itself.

But I reiterate from earlier: good luck with your game.

 

[6K Man]

I have to disagree with the premise here. You've never replayed a start? Knowing things from having scouted 30 turns out from the start isn't equivalent to "cooking the map" in ANY sense? Never replayed a saved game further along in time to see if making a different decision would have yielded a different, more beneficial, result?

Nope. Never have. But that’s just me. I used to occasionally reload when a decision turned out to be a bad one, but now I live with bad decisions (or start a new game, if they were bad enough). Playing the same map over and over feels tedious to me – hell, I can’t even be bothered replaying 5 turns if the game freezes on me and I have to go back to my last save. But again, that’s just me.

If you re-read the original post, you'll see that I didn't ask for any "strategy tips".

I asked what others would do as far as planning the location of their 2nd City. Big difference in my mind.

You are posting in the “Strategy and Tips” forum. If you post here, the expectation of most readers is that you are looking for strategy advice. I’m not sure what the difference is between “asking for strategy tips” and going to a strategy forum and asking what others would do in a particular scenario.

I happen to learn by trying something, examining the results, then backing up and trying something else - whether the results were "positive" or "negative"

YMMV

Which is fine – I have always said, play the game you want. My point was: Other players will be less invested in helping you if they feel you’ve already quote-unquote-cheated by editing the map. I edit maps too – I’m with you on this. But can put some people’s backs up, as you have probably noticed.

 

[rah]

I think everybody would benefit from it not being referred to as cheating. Too much of a judgement being made. If one is playing a single non-competitive game for fun, there's no way it should be considered "cheating".

 

[lymond]

Honestly, the OP would have been better off not saying anything in the first place. I think he felt the golds were so unusual that folks would think he planted them there, when actually it is not that unusual at all to see golds grouped together like that..and they are desert anyway. I would have thought nothing about it. Really the whole argument was pointless from the start.

And yes, "cheats" or whatever pc manner in which to described them are generally shunned by most here, especially when coming for advice. As I noted earlier, it makes me less inspired to help the person - although I still did. With that said, I agree that any player can do whatever they wish with worldbuilder to have fun, if that is what the choose. It's just a game. But for many, the fun comes from the challenge.

 

[Nolition]

On the, er, "drama":

Looking forward to inciteful comments.

You did ask for incitement.

 

[gramm87]

Can't we just let this thread die in peace instead of poking it with a stick (and yes I do get the irony)?