To be or not to be...a genocide

[Mr. Dictator]

Where in the Constitution does it say the federal government is supposed to nitpick about things that happened in countries that don't exist anymore 90 years ago?

ahh, nevermind.

bow down to turkey.

 

[amadeus]

ahh, nevermind.

bow down to turkey.

Executive branch sets foreign policy, not the Congress.

 

[Stewbert 08]

That's Japanese, Arab, Korean and Chinese for "I can also use a translator".

Dude, I'm fuggin Jewish. I was born in Rehovot, you know where that is? You got caught making ******** assumptions. Don't make it worse.

The point I made two pages earlier still stands:

This is the first time in my life that I'm glad that Jews have so much power in American politics. Because this thread clearly demonstrates that, without that influence, Americans are pretty much blasé about genocide. "It happened in another country!" "It was so long ago!" "What's the point of involving ourselves & hurting relations w/ an ally?" Despicable.

Here's how it breaks down: one Jewish American guy (me) in favor of the resolution. Nearly all the people from European countries, as far as I can see, in favor. The majority of the American posters: "Yawn."

I'm fuggin appalled and I'm glad that these same apathetic "As long as MY ancestors weren't mass-murdered, it's alright" types have at least been educated into displaying the proper level of horror over the Holocaust.

 

[Stewbert 08]

Yeah but if you dont condemn one from the past, it makes the moral case for intervening in one in future harder

It makes STOPPING future genocides harder. As Hitler correctly calculated in 1939 when he planted the seeds of the Final Solution -

Our strength is our quickness and our brutality.... What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order... I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?

The Germans learned a whole lot from the Turks, actually. The Turks built the first gas chambers - they stuffed Armenians into caves, tossed a torch inside and sealed the entrance. Death by suffocation.

 

[Winner]

So is it unimportant enough not to bother passing a bill, or should the turks just brush it off and let the world think what it wants to?

Or Both?

Look, if Americans ignored the fact it was a genocide (and not a messy third world genocide with machetes, but a deliberate, planned and brutally executed "modern" genocide), they'd practically say "we are hypocrites and genocide deniers".

People like Mr. Ahmadinejad would then appear on TV and say "there was no such thing as Holocaust. Yes, there were some killings and some Jews died, but it was then exagerrated by Zionists in order to justify taking the holy land from Palestinian people" or something like that.

Turkey is an ally, but if it can't confess to a century old crime, they either have a serious problem with their ego or they just agree with what their ancestors did. I don't know which one is worse.

 

[RedRalph]

Rare I'll say this - but fair play to congress. In the face of no doubt a lot of pressure, they did what was right instead of what was expedient. Good for them

 

[Little Raven]

There are now reports that Turkey has withdrawn their ambassador from Washington in protest. Depending on how aggressive Turkey wants to be, this could result in major pain for the US in Iraq.

 

[dosed150]

so the american government is worried about genocide 90 years ago but did nothing to stop genocide in the balkans or rwanda

 

[Rhymes]

Who has something to gain from this bill? No one if you ask me, recognising the genocide won't change anyone's life nor bring back those who died.

On the other hand the passing of this bill could affect today's world and even cause a whole lot of trouble, possibly even wars and deaths.

So imo anyone supporting this bill doesn't his values at the right place.

 

[MobBoss]

so the american government is worried about genocide 90 years ago but did nothing to stop genocide in the balkans or rwanda

Oh...we will pass non-binding resolutions against those as well....please feel free to check back with us in 90 years or so to have it done....

 

[amadeus]

so the american government is worried about genocide 90 years ago but did nothing to stop genocide in the balkans or rwanda

I thought it was "imperialism" when we intervened in foreign affairs.

 

[Bill3000]

I thought it was "imperialism" when we intervened in foreign affairs.

No, people never objected to the sanctions against South Africa and Rhodesia, and rightfully so.

 

[amadeus]

No, people never objected to the sanctions against South Africa and Rhodesia, and rightfully so.

Ah, funny you should mention that... I happen to have found a wonderful book that has a commentary on that.

(That's Harold Wilson in the second picture, and he's stepping on tankers delivering oil to the port of Beira in then-Portuguese Mozambique, where the oil would be sent to Rhodesia.)

 

[Stewbert 08]

Who has something to gain from this bill?

The descendants of people who were murdered by the Ottoman State.

No one if you ask me, recognising the genocide won't change anyone's life nor bring back those who died.

Neither do Holocaust Museums. I guess they should all close.

On the other hand the passing of this bill could affect today's world and even cause a whole lot of trouble, possibly even wars and deaths.

I can't believe the cowardice of this. You think America should turn a blind eye to Turkey papering over its history just because Turkey will be offended at anyone who DOESN'T play along with their despicable denial?

I guess Britain should start teaching that the Holocaust is "a theory" in their schools, cuz if not, Muslim schoolchildren might tell their parents and then who knows, they could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

I guess China should just roll over when Japan says their occupation of Manchuria was heaven on earth cuz if not, Japanese nationals could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

Them durn Yanks shouldn't call slavery a harlot cuz if a Southern Senator heard about that, he could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

You're basically saying the U.S. Congress should be held hostage to Turkey's petulance. Fudge that.

 

[MobBoss]

I can't believe the cowardice of this. You think America should turn a blind eye to Turkey papering over its history just because Turkey will be offended at anyone who DOESN'T play along with their despicable denial?

Dude. It was 1915-1917. In todays reality, Turkey is indeed very important as an ally and as part of our goals in the middle east. Doing this now is just beyond stupid, pretty much to the point of incompetence.

I guess Britain should start teaching that the Holocaust is "a theory" in their schools, cuz if not, Muslim schoolchildren might tell their parents and then who knows, they could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

If your buddy Ahamadinawhackjob has his way, who knows what they will teach in Lodonistan in the future.

But thats not what we are talking about here. Recognizing this officially, 90 years down the road does not one bit of good to what occurred back then. In fact, it only strains our relationship with a power that we need to be on our side currently.

I guess China should just roll over when Japan says their occupation of Manchuria was heaven on earth cuz if not, Japanese nationals could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

Apparently, you have pushed the big red button labeled 'ramble on" because you arent really making any sense with this line of thought at all.

You're basically saying the U.S. Congress should be held hostage to Turkey's petulance. Fudge that.

Held hostage? Crap, there was no hostage to hold! What we dont need is an important ally for securing stability pissed off at us right now. Its called common sense. Sadly, our democrat majority congress seemed sadly lacking of any of it.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I feel like throwing the word "appeasement" into this discussion.

*flees to exam practice*

 

[ParkCungHee]

I guess Britain should start teaching that the Holocaust is "a theory" in their schools, cuz if not, Muslim schoolchildren might tell their parents and then who knows, they could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

I guess China should just roll over when Japan says their occupation of Manchuria was heaven on earth cuz if not, Japanese nationals could cause "a whole lot of trouble."

Or, if you were to be consistent, you would be complaining about how Britain and China paper over their own Genocides. So why don't we throw rocks at those wasps nests?

 

[lovett]

This is the first time in my life that I'm glad that Jews have so much power in American politics. Because this thread clearly demonstrates that, without that influence, Americans are pretty much blasé about genocide. "It happened in another country!" "It was so long ago!" "What's the point of involving ourselves & hurting relations w/ an ally?" Despicable.

So explain why, practically, congress recognising this will make the world better off?

As far as I can see, this resolution would alienate the one resolutely secularist islamic state in the muslim world. What benefits would this resolution bring to counteract this? Would they be large enough to nullify the massive strategic drawbacks, in both a tactical war time sense and a strategic diplomatic sense? Would recognising the Armenian genocide really be worth destroying relations with one of Americas only allies in the middle east, and a predominantly muslim one to boot?

Incidentally, I don't really buy the supposition that this'll reduce future genocides. As someones previously mentioned, despite universal condemnation of the Holocaust ect, no one stepped in at Rwanda did they, and what the hell about Darfur? Bit more urgent surely?

 

[Che Guava]

Look, if Americans ignored the fact it was a genocide (and not a messy third world genocide with machetes, but a deliberate, planned and brutally executed "modern" genocide), they'd practically say "we are hypocrites and genocide deniers".

A good point to make, a country in the position that America has should be very careful about picking and choosing what it chooses to condemn...

People like Mr. Ahmadinejad would then appear on TV and say "there was no such thing as Holocaust. Yes, there were some killings and some Jews died, but it was then exagerrated by Zionists in order to justify taking the holy land from Palestinian people" or something like that.

\

Don't they do that already....?

Turkey is an ally, but if it can't confess to a century old crime, they either have a serious problem with their ego or they just agree with what their ancestors did. I don't know which one is worse.

I think the problem is that the former tends to lead to the latter, which leads to a a historical deja vu. Rinse, lather, repeat...

The only problem comes that since turks are very proud of thier heritage, and proud people don't tend to adopt things that are pressed upon them. I just worry that by countries passing resolutions, binding or not, they'll just stand even firmer in thier beleif, and once that ball gets rolling, we can only guess where it will end. In the end it just seem slike a lot to lose, with little to gain, even if it is right morally. Oy, I guess the good moral decisions are never the easy ones though, eh?

 

[MobBoss]

I think we need a non-binding resolution condemning the British treatment and ethnic clensing of the Boers in South Africa.

Can I get a big from everyone that supports this?