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To people who disliked Steam.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Skwink, May 6, 2011.

?

How do you feel about Steam now?

  1. I like it.

    104 vote(s)
    47.5%
  2. I don't like it.

    83 vote(s)
    37.9%
  3. I like Skwink.

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. like voting in polls lols

    28 vote(s)
    12.8%
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  1. Eiat

    Eiat Chieftain

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    I must admit I think steam rocks, for pretty much every reason as aguds has stated above!

    My two fav games are on Steam, namely Civ 5 and Football Manager 2011, I really like the auto patching, and the in game chat, very nice as like aguds said, not many people will see other IM apps when in game.

    I have not found that having Steam running impacts on the game performance for either Civ or FM, so no issues here. Also the offline mode and launching games has never ever failed me either.

    Something I have always felt lacked on PC games was the achievements. I own an Xbox, and enjoy trying to unlock the different games achievements and improving my gamerscore. With Steam I can now do this.

    Big Thumbs up from me! :goodjob:
     
  2. Shakira42

    Shakira42 Chieftain

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    I'm sort of in the middle on this.

    I think the service Steam provides is pretty neat. Access to tons of games, central repository, community, timely updates, etc.
    However, I have no use for most of it and also dislike the "must be running" to play my hard copy games.

    I don't hate it for what it does, I just wish I had a choice. And I don't mean the "vote with your dollars" choice. I did that with the SecuRom games, didn't buy a one though I wanted quite a few. I just want the choice to not have Steam running when I play a game.

    So I can't say I hate Steam, but I don't like it for myself.

    I voted because I like voting in polls. :p
     
  3. deanej

    deanej Deity

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  4. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    ... and that's precisely one reason why the EULAs you refer to aren't valid in large parts of the world. Your statement also doesn't seem to be true since I just checked several games I own, and none of them had this limitation that, according to your claim, "EVERY videogame" has.

    But regardless of laws and fine-prints, the bottom line is that with a Steam-less game like Civ4, it was entirely under my control whether or not I can play the game. I know that I can play Civ4 20 years from now, as well as I play Master of Orion (which is a 20 year old game) now in 2011. Giving this control over to any company which explicitly states that it can terminate my account whenever it wants to, thereby blocking me from all my previous purchases, and that explicitly states that I have to waive a lot of rights to even sign up, simply isn't acceptable to me. It's fine if it's acceptable for you, I won't try to evangelize you - if these customer rights aren't important for you, then by all means enjoy Steam for as long as it lasts. But for me it simply isn't, so I'll continue playing older games (many of which are very good btw) until the situation improves again.

    Edit: the irony in this is that developers claim that they choose Steam because it raises their income by preventing piracy. Well, there are at least three games now that I would have bought if they were sold without Steam, so I kind of wonder whether their line of argument really holds up.
     
  5. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Years ago my first experience with Steam was with one of the Half Life 2 games. I didn't want it, didn't understand it, and didn't see why I had to run it to play an offline game. I was afraid and this new thing was coming to steal my cheese.

    Fast forward to present day and things have totally changed. Now, I get annoyed when games don't use Steam.

    The benefits of Steam are just too many to list:
    -Automatic patching

    -Friends lists

    -Frequent game sales. You can get many great games for a few bucks. They have some fantastic weekend sales going on right now. Your brick and mortar retailer does not do this.

    -No physical media. Back in the day I lost my BTS disk so many times and spend as many hours searching for my disk as I did playing.

    -Selling old DOS and other classic games and getting them to run easily on modern hardware (dosbox, etc). I can run X-Com (a game from 1994) on a modern PC and not have to worry about setup.

    -Being able to run a game on multiple PCs. I can install X-Com on my really old laptop and play anytime I want without having to buy the game again (I know people do this with physical media but in reality it is not legal)

    The only real downside to Steam is if Valve goes under, and if that happens it is going to be a major blow to PC gaming. If that day ever does come, we can download all our software since it will be "abandonware" at that point.
     
  6. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Indeed. This is because most countries aren't bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists.

    The piracy argument is just what the companies say to justify DRM. The real purpose is to take control of the content away from consumers.

    Also a major flaw. Should be able to turn it off on a game-by-game basis. I've never found patching hard or time consuming though.

    I've never understood the social networking trends in general, but particularly with gaming. Isn't gaming a traditionally solo experience?

    Reymorn and Flanagan has frequent furniture sales (every day, in fact). Does that make them the best furniture store?

    Digital download =/= steam. I'd use the subset symbol, but don't know how without embedding an image.

    See my links on DRM.

    Nothing lasts forever. It's just a question of weather it happens at a time when we care.
     
  7. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Every time I pop onto these forums someone is arguing that Steam is bad.

    People are pretty ignorant about how "property" and "intellectual property" works, thinking paying hard cash instatly and always provides ownership in its full sense.

    Simply put - it doesn't.

    For example, if you purchase a piece of land, you still don't own the airspace above it or the actual land below certain depth (regulations vary by country). Nor you can do whatever you want with it.

    A car is an even better example. Yes, you can buy a car, but you need a registration and a driver's licence to actually be allowed to drive it. Now, you might argue that you want to "own a car just to drive it in your back yard" and okay, that's that's 1:0 for you.

    Computer games are primarily "intellectual property", which means that stuff like booklets, CDs DVDs or any other medium that carries the intellectual property is just a physical manifestation of the intellectual property. Yes, you can "own" the pyhsical manifestation but you do not own the "intellectual property". In case of books, you cannot copy-paste text from it just because you bought the book. You can quote certain parts of a book, but only after you got an approval to do so. Whenever you "buy" intellectual property, you never ever own it. Even if its physical manifestation is as easy to carry around like a pocket book.

    Civilization 5 bought on steam consist of three separate parts: the intellectual property (the game itself), the phsyical manifestation of it (steam download&play) and the "policeman" (steam login and game serial number). You cannot buy one without the other.

    Civilization 5 bought in a store consists again of three separate parts: the intellectual property (the game itself), the phsyical manifestation of it (packaging, DVD, booklet) and the "policeman" (steam login and game serial number).

    The reason why the "policeman" part got impelemented into Civilization 5 (and other games like Blizzard games) is because cyber criminal was going rampant. Not unlike the new security checks at airports in US, although in computer games case it was 100% legit to get "paranoid" since over 50% of games were pirated.

    If you don't like the world you're living in, make it better. In the meantime, understand that computer game piracy almost ruined the industry and that certain steps had to be made to curb it.

    Like every security system, Steam has its flaws.

    As for the case of "what if Steam decides to pull the plug and all my purchases are going to dissapear", well, that's something you can bring to court and win big time, because I see no valid reason for Steam to be able to do that to anyone without a very, very valid reason (like caught you in hacking the system or the sorts). So that's just mean paranoia.
     
  8. anandus

    anandus Errorist

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    Traditionally yes. But that was mostly because of the lack of means. Nowadays the focus of a lot of games is on multiplayer and they throw in a single player campaign of a few hours.
    You can tell with Civ5 as well how many people are complaining about a lack of working multiplayer.

    And as a communication-hub Steam works fine as well. One reason is that most people who play games have Steam.
    Where me, my friends and my family used to use MSN (now called WLM) for instant messaging (and ICQ before that), we now use Steam and that shift went quite naturally, actually.
    It also helps that the IM-client is straightforward and not unneccessarily bloated.
     
  9. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    @Bibor: I'll just refer you to the last link I posted. Stallman has many great articles on the subject of intellectual property.
     
  10. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The only reason for this is because people are constantly telling others that this is the case.

    In none of both cases anything can be cancelled just by will of someone.

    And the last part is the problem.


    And at poll: Last option, since i don't use Steam.
     
  11. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    You can. I just believe Civ V has issues with this, but have not tried it myself.

    Not at all. Civ isn't a good example for me but I play lots of games with friends. A bunch of old college friends from all over the country play NHL hockey online once a week. It is a great way to have fun and catch up at the same time. Sometimes I'll be playing Civ and someone will send me a note to hop on 360 for some hockey.

    I didn't use it very much at first either, but as more people get on it really is a nice feature. At a minimum it is fun to see what others are playing.

    Plus you have games like Portal 2 which have large co-op parts to them.
     
  12. Mods

    Mods Warlord

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    It's good DRM that is all
     
  13. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    It's funny how people quote this:
    2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.

    I would seriously want to see Valve winning a court case where they cancelled their services "just like that" and got away with it.

    DRM would be obsolete if prices of computer games would be fashioned in a way that they compensate for piracy. Good luck selling those $200 computer games though.
     
  14. rbj2001

    rbj2001 Warlord

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    I would bet that most people who clicked "I like it" did not dislike it originally. Poll should have more options, i.e.

    "I did dislike it and now like it",
    "I liked it / didn't care and now like it",
    "I did dislike it and still do",
    "I liked it / didn't care but now realize it is teh suck",
    "Steam pays me to hang out here and act as unofficial support"
    etc.

    Not to mention the possibility that many people dislike Steam so much that they have stopped playing Civ 5 and therefore no longer visit these forums.

    My vote goes to the "this poll sucks" option, which is missing. :p
     
  15. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    That's just the doomsday "going out of business" scenario. Steam would never just tell paying customers to go away.

    With 2-3 million active players on Steam at any given time, it isn't something I lose sleep worrying about. ;)

    If the absolute worst case did happen, and Steam just went away with nothing, we could "acquire" our games through alternate means. This would be the absolute worst case scenario.
     
  16. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Except DRM isn't about priacy (despite what the publishers say). It's about control. Fair use isn't good enough for the publishers, so they use DRM to gain more control. And our bought and paid for government has gone along with them, passing laws like the DMCA that criminalize fair use when DRM is involved by making the cracking itself illegal. It's explained very well in the articles I linked to.

    Besides, the piracy issue is exaggerated at best. Most pirates wouldn't pay for the product if they couldn't pirate. This is supported with anecdotal evidence at sites like Alizée America, it's mentioned in a least a couple episodes of the Security Now podcast, and I've even heard that studies have been done to prove the claim.
     
  17. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    I don't think having Civ on steam is a good idea, but I'm a steam fan.
     
  18. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Steam isn't about DRM, not really. Most people can bypass that anyway.

    Steam is about selling video games to people who play video games (OMG EVIL!).
     
  19. forty2j

    forty2j King

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    You keep saying this, but I can't find an example where Steam actually limits your control. What is Steam preventing you from doing that you could legally do with physical media? Perhaps you're referring to the secondary game market, but that has always been practically nonexistent with PC games just due to the relative ease of cracking a copy.

    Eminent domain comes to mind.
     
  20. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Legally valid or not, it has barely been challenged in court (and in the USA it was upheld for the AutoCAD software) and as such they are still selling you a license to use the game and that is what I was referring too. I'm not saying its necessarily 100% correct the way it is and shouldn't be challenged, I have no problem with someone challenging it in court.

    I'd be interested ink knowing what games you checked and found weren't a license, as I also checked several games I have installed (Fallout, Freespace 2, SWAT 4, The Witcher, World of Goo, Civ4, Mass Effect, and a number more that had their EULA sitting aronud in the install folder. They all had the same Software Use Limitations and Limited License agreements granting you a General Product License in their EULAs. Although it is possible there are a very few games that don't have an EULA included but they are the exception not the rule.

    Part of The Witcher's EULA which makes it VERY clear:



    Welcome to digital distribution? I'm not overly fond of that possibility either but seeing as how I've paid less than $15 for most of the games I've bought on Steam I'm not going to worry about acquiring them in 20 years if something bad does happen.

    And for each game you didn't buy I have no doubt several people bought it because they saw it was available on Steam (and not necessarily on sale either). Of course there are no facts to back up either of our claims here but from everything I've seen, read and heard it seems extremely likely.

    Tell that to everyone who has ever had their land seized by the government (or what would soon become the government). Iirc the Queen of England is legally allowed to seize private property for her own use. Digital distributors aren't just going to go get bored and decided to cancel a bunch of random people's accounts for ****s and giggles although Valve has locked some people's accounts when they thought they were doing something wrong but weren't, although half the time I've seen someone raise a big fuss over it on the net it turned out they were actually breaking the rules (not that i see many of them).

    Yet they haven't done anything about preventing the EULAs from being enforced.

    Depends on the game but not particularly. Gaming has had as many if not more social experiences than solo. Arcades, multiplayer gaming, co-op gaming, hell even gameboys/handhelds are not entirely a solo experience. While everyone will find the friends list's usefulness to be different it is extremely useful for many people. It is great for arranging games with friends or people you like to play with from the internet, or as mentioned keeping up with friends who may not live near you. Thankfully there is no stupid facebook integration like there is in Blizzard's even more controlling Battlenet 2.0.

    DRM, controlling something? Never! Its only the definition of DRM. For the majority of DRM it is about controlling (preventing) piracy, it just doesn't work very well. Most developers probably don't care too much about controlling your game, I can't see any advantage from that. Publishers can be rather overly protective about it sometimes though.

    I'm pretty sure Fair Use does NOT cover you being able to play a video game whenever you want to, seeing as how it is focused entirely on the use of copyrighted works.
     
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