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To people who disliked Steam.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Skwink, May 6, 2011.

?

How do you feel about Steam now?

  1. I like it.

    104 vote(s)
    47.5%
  2. I don't like it.

    83 vote(s)
    37.9%
  3. I like Skwink.

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. like voting in polls lols

    28 vote(s)
    12.8%
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  1. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

    Joined:
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    I'm someone who has become a very big fan of steam.

    Steam can take a big chunk of the credit for the resurgence of the PC as a gaming platform when everyone was predicting its imminent death, and for that alone it is awesome. In particular, it's played a huge part in the rise of the indie game market, which is now enormous and amazing (and where all the creativity and innovation is happening). And you could argue that both of these are just because it's a digital distribution platform which also happens to be the most successful, but I really think it's more to do with the fact that it does all the other things it does as part of a single package (especially for the indies).
    Their sales are also ludicrously good.

    As a service, it's a pretty good games marketplace, and it makes things easy with the downloading, patching and aggregation. And it does achievements and profiles too, which mean bugger all to me on their own, except it means that there's no more reason for publishers to try and shove Games For Windows Live on a game (plenty of publishers have gone from GFWL to steamworks alone now and nobody seems to be doing steam+gfwl anymore). No matter how much you hate steam, I think we can all agree it's nowhere near as bad as GFWL.

    For indie games and most mainstream AAA games, I reckon it's a net positive. But they haven't really found a way for it to play nicely with mods, so yeah I'm less enamoured of it for mod-heavy games (I've learnt not to buy Paradox games on steam). Civ V's implementation of mods works comparitively nicely with steam, except for the auto-patching thing. So yeah, not a perfect fit, but not terrible.

    But really, publishers are always going to demand DRM, and Steam is not only pretty much the least intrusive form of DRM, but also provides a useful service to boot. It's because it's such an all-in-one service of shop, game management system, community thing and light DRM that it makes it easier for developers/publishers to make it easier for the consumer.

    It would be nice if it had a viable competitor though.
     
  2. deanej

    deanej Deity

    Joined:
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    Why not ditch the publishers? Once digital distribution fully establishes itself, there will be no reason for them to exist. I say just have the developers self-publish online and let the publishers go out of business. They're more trouble than they're worth.

    Developers generally actually want to create value. Publishers just want to make money and control content.
     
  3. MoonFlare

    MoonFlare Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Luna
    Spoiler :


    Impulse from Stardock is one of them.Recently Gamestop purchased it from Stardock.They want to get back into PC gaming market.Hope they burn in bankrupt hell.
     
  4. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2001
    Messages:
    402
    Because the problem of developers going out of business is that the problem of you "losing" your purchase is significantly higher. There's no way you are going to buy some game from an independent group.

    However having Steam behind it is exactly what we need. 2-3 million concurrent users at any given time is not going away anytime soon.
     
  5. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

    Joined:
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    Yep, if people really want to see DRM that they won't like, try buying a game with one of the intrusive systems which will modify the hardware configuration of your PC in order to work (and likely break it in the process). You end up with these hidden services and programs with no uninstall routine.
     
  6. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    ...that would be every form of DRM.

    I'll then buy one of these, because i hope it will upgrade my graphics card to a newer one....

    :D

    No, worst case scenario: Monthly fees.

    I guess you know what everyone gives on that when it can't be controlled (which is the point here).


    Buy anything because it's there? Sheep. Consume slaves.

    ...and do you think this is right?
     
  7. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2001
    Messages:
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    Spend a weekend trying to figure out why your PC no longer reads CD/DVDs and you'll joke a lot less about it.

    http://kotaku.com/#!161893/starforce-reboots-your-pc-without-warning-dont-like-it-youre-mafioso

    How about this game which forces you to keep a constant online connection (steam does not, no matter how much people bash it and claim it does):

    http://www.1up.com/news/assassin-creed-2-requires-constant

    Assuming all DRM is the same is quite silly. That would be like comparing a light rain to a hurricane.
     
  8. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    That's still software and not hardware ;).

    And sure, not all DRM systems are the same. There are the evil ones, the more evil ones, and the most evil ones.
     
  9. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
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    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    When I buy a game, I want the game, and not a required intrusive software with abusive DRM system that spy on my computer and act contrary to my wishes.

    I didn't need Steam before, it adds nothing I want, and lots of things I hate. And like all annoying DRM, the only actual effect is pushing toward piracy, not against it.
     
  10. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

    Joined:
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    The cutest of cephalopods
    Is this garbled uncharitable response really worthy of a moderation team member?

    Moderator Action: We all make typos, no need to be rude about it.
     
  11. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

    Joined:
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    It is device drivers which mess with your hardware on your PC and can cause it to stop functioning. That's DRM for a game breaking your PC. And to uninstall? You cannot. That's nasty stuff. And yes this stuff does exist.
     
  12. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Still a software problem and not a hardware problem ;).
    And i know that such stuff exists. It's somehow more evil than Steam...don't know exactly how this is possible, but it is.

    Thanks for the hint, fixed the typos.

    What i mean: If you buy something because you see it...what for a decission is it then? How do you think crappy games get sold? Because people buy them because they are seeing them and do not care about getting some infos. If you buy something without thinking, then you either have too much money or not enough willpower.
    And that's a general problem, not only for games.
     
  13. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    You assume steam is the wrong choice for 100% of the people, when in fact many people use it and like it and have zero problems with it.
     
  14. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    No, i don't say that.
    If you want to use it, then use it.
    But i don't want to use it, and i don't have the mentioned choice here.
     
  15. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    We could discuss this in detail, but it would probably be off-topic, and in any case I don't see the relevance for the point I was making. As I said, with other games it's under _my_ control whether I can still play them in 20 years, with Steam I'm dependent on them and their goodwill and business viability. Whether or not EULAs are valid or being contested is of no relevance here since - as you yourself stated - these EULAs were unenforcable even if they had been valid. Hence there's an objective loss of control for the customer.

    I'm not talking about games not being sold as a license, so there seems to have been a misunderstanding. I'm talking about games not being sold with an explicitly revokable license. (Add "enforcable" if you like"). I don't see such a statement in the "Witcher" license you quoted, and I don't see it in the ones i checked.

    Of course games, even if sold as a physical product, have been sold with licenses in the past. Buyers don't own the code, and there are typically limitations on the usage of the software (number of parallel installations etc.) that probably wouldn't be possible otherwise. But that wasn't my point. My point was that Steam explicitly reserves the right to revoke your license and block you out of all the games you purchased, under conditions so general that they basically amount to "whenever we want to". Again, this is an objective loss of control compared to the pre-Steam situation.
     
  16. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Ah my mistake. I haven't read them for a revoke clause.

    EDIT:
    Upon rechecking a few of them, they do indeed state that they may be terminated, without notice and that you must destroy the software.
    But yeah no I get your point.
     
  17. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    No problem. I guess I could have been more clear as well. :)
     
  18. teks

    teks Prince

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    compare steam to gamespy back in the day.
    Gamespy was recommended, and many people really liked it, but not everyone. It compiled all your games into one platform, it let you download and play other non-retail games, and if I remember helped with you patches (which non-steam games do automatically nowadays anyway). You could even chat with friends, and stuff.

    Gamespy came, and went though, and steam will likely have a similar lifecycle. The major difference is that I wasn't forced to use gamespy just to play my games.

    Also I'm having account problems again, go figure. It says its sending me my account information, but I aint getting it. Now I get to spend the afternoon figuring what the hell it is again. Oh joy.

    Edit:ah finally. Man its an old old account name. Probably has the wrong email too. Well thank god thats over...wait...is it trying to install the whole game on my DSL connection when I have the freaking CD...stupid freaking thing....
     
  19. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Stop download, delete local content, try again :)
     
  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Civ 5's termination clause:

    So this isn't termination on a whim, it's only if you violate the terms of the license agreement. Pretty standard stuff, the same thing applies to driver's licenses.

    I'm pretty neutral on Steam. Auto patching is a pain if it disrupts ongoing games. With Civ4 I could create a 2nd directory and use it to keep the old version. OTOH auto patching ensures everyone in a MP game has the same patch level, which is probably good. (though I don't play MP yet) I'm not afraid of it tracking my usage of the only game I have installed that uses it -- generally not afraid of tracking at all to be honest. That comes mostly from having nothing to hide. The extra memory for a mostly useless process would be significant if I didn't have 8GB of RAM.

    DRM is a pretty simple concept. You can use ONE copy at a time, exactly like you use a book. You can't copy it and give the copy to someone else, you can't play it on two computers at the same time. All the DRM is doing is ensuring you don't do any of the things forbidden by the license. I routinely install games on two computers, my desktop and my wife's laptop, but I never use both at the same time and she doesn't play computer games at all. I'd much rather have an internet connection (which I have anyway, except for the rare times I'm on an airplane) than have to carry the CD with me everywhere.
     
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