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To people who disliked Steam.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Skwink, May 6, 2011.

?

How do you feel about Steam now?

  1. I like it.

    104 vote(s)
    47.5%
  2. I don't like it.

    83 vote(s)
    37.9%
  3. I like Skwink.

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. like voting in polls lols

    28 vote(s)
    12.8%
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  1. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Companies like Firaxis and Maxis meet your criteria, but they are not publishers.

    And no, it's not mass media, but mass media is unnatural. Artists etc. did just fine before mass media and will do just fine after. No, it won't be huge like it is now, but you don't need huge to make a decent living.

    There's no reason why content creators have to live among the super rich. Middle class is good enough.
     
  2. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

    Joined:
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    I say that we should all take up arms against our oppressors! We'll teach them to introduce mild anti-piracy measures into our beloved civ series! /sarcasm
     
  3. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Shakespeare was sponsored by Queen Elizabeth and, later, King James. He would not have succeeded at all without royal patronage. Michelangelo worked for the leader of Florence, Lorenzo de' Medici and, later, by Popes. Leonardo da Vinci traveled from Duke to Duke before working for the King of France. These are some of the greatest artists of all time and they could not have succeeded without someone with money sponsoring their work.

    And they don't. I guarantee no one who programs for Firaxis is wealthy. Especially when you consider the financial and time investment required for games with no guarantee of sales and then, the time investment after the game has been sold and little money will continue on it, trying to patch it to meet everyone's expectations.
     
  4. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    Regarding publishers vs self-publishing: I agree with deanej that self-publishing has become more viable than it was in the last decades, and will probably become more viable still in the years to come. The reason for this is that due to the internet, and especially social networks, word-of-mouth can spread very quick and very far with relatively little investment on part of the artist. Also, making small international payments has become much easier even for people who can't afford credit cards, due to services like Paypal.

    While it's of course still _helpful_ to have a publisher with the power to buy advertising space, arrange press meetings, launch a well-designed marketing campaign, and push the product on shop shelves, all this isn't _mandatory_ any more. Self-publishing will always be at a disadvantage compared to a million-dollar marketing campaign, but it is becoming a much more viable option.

    That said, the publishing alone isn't the main advantage of being backed by a publisher. The main advantage is getting the money to actually develop a title. Developing an AAA title (or even just an "A" title) has become a multi-million dollar investment that also (due to the volatility of the market) entails a high risk. Hence it's not easy to find investors. Without publishers paying for the development, lots of games wouldn't have had any chance of being developed. If you want to develop games with high production value, there mostly isn't an alternative to external funding - not in the long run, at least. And unfortunately (though understandably) the companies investing their money want to have a say in the game's development.

    Some developers have been able to fund the development of one game with profits from the previous product - but that usually only works for a couple of years. Inevitably, at some point in time, the last developed game will not sell well, and that's precisely the moment in time where such companies usually get swallowed by the bigger ones. Firaxis wouldn't have been sold to Atari (and later 2K) if they could have remained independent, but SMAC simply didn't sell half as well as it would have been necessary for that.

    Hence, publishers won't go obsolete, but there will be more (and bigger) niches for self-publishing in the future. One of the big open questions is whether people will be willing to pay for games with less production value, since self-published games will have less money to spend on development. Personally I hope so, since (imho) currently a lot of a game's budget goes into things that I wouldn't pay for if I had a choice. For example, I'd gladly buy a strategy game with great gameplay even if it doesn't have animated leaders or units.
     
  5. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    I don't know about you, but I hardly consider anything that takes control of my computer and the software on it away from me "mild".

    Secondly, you're ignoring my point that it isn't really about piracy at all. It's all about control.
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Steam doesn't actually take control of your computer, does it?

    It is about control, but it's about control over their product, not your life. If you rented a car, no would be upset if there were conditions attached to the rental. Even if they absolutely refused to see the car but only sold it as a rental car, people still wouldn't care that it was a rental with conditions attached. I don't get why, just because, at one time, computer games were sold in fee simple, they can't choose to distribute them through some alternative means.
     
  7. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    It takes control of how your games run.

    I would never rent a car. I like to OWN my stuff.

    I'm gonna re-post the link to Stallman's right to read short story. If you read just one thing from Stallman read this. The really scary part is it could actually happen; everything in that story has been proposed by corporate America and/or the government at least once.

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
     
  8. Varelse

    Varelse Rabble Rouser

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2002
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    377
    Yup that's me. I haven't played the game in a very long time, and Steam, along with the slow trickle of overpriced DLC approach, are one of the main reasons why.

    Although I obviously haven't entirely stopped visiting the forum, or I wouldn't be responding to your post. ;)
     
  9. Varelse

    Varelse Rabble Rouser

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    An analogy betwen video game purchase and car rental is a rather disturbing one. Maybe I'm just an old fogey but I don't like the direction all this is going in.
     
  10. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    That's only because you're used to it that way. Factually, I don't see the distinction. They're both goods sold by a company for profit via the method they choose to sell it.
     
  11. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    It's because a lot of young people don't seem to care that they don't own anything they buy and don't mind letting their lives be controlled by business.

    I fear for the future.
     
  12. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I'm not thinking of this as a young person, I'm recognizing that they aren't a charity.

    Let's go step by step. If publishers decided they weren't going to release the game at all, they were just going to cancel the project, would that be OK?
     
  13. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    Exactly. Note all of the indy games currently listed and advertised in the Steam store, helping get them better exposure and sales. If they all had to depend on their own obscure self-made websites for distribution... fail.
     
  14. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Sorry but you are just going against facts here. You are entitled to whatever opinion you want, but when you make up facts that is just wrong.

    Steam does nothing to take control of your PC. Other DRM most certainly does (in very evil ways).

    Right now I'm not playing a Steam game, so what is Steam doing? Not running. Why? Because I set it to not start automatically, so it does what I tell it to. If I decide to uninstall it, it goes away. Control = mine.

    Go back to my link on Starforce or other DRM which installs services and device drivers which impact your computer and give you no option to uninstall. Steam does none of this.

    You are more than welcome to say you don't like it and don't want it. That's your opinion, but don't start making up things about it.
     
  15. JaGarLo

    JaGarLo Settler

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    I still dislike it. I can't play Civ anymore with my buddies due to Steam. When I discovered that on September 2010, I decided that L4D2 for XBOX was the last Valve game that I'll ever buy.

    P.S.: No offense to those who like Steam.
     
  16. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Companies like Firaxis and Maxis are owned, heavily influenced and controlled by their publishers, the actual employees also receive very little of the actual money made from selling the games and many have salaries and/or contracts depending on the studio.

    And many content creators do live in the middle or lower class, relatively few artists actually achieve high levels of wealth and fame, and extremely few of them work on video games.

    I don't see you "old folks" doing anything about it either. It is neither just young people who are oblivious to how much of our lives really rely upon corporations, that is a pretty erroneous and prejudice claim to make.
     
  17. forty2j

    forty2j King

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    Now I'm curious. If you go traveling overseas, are you going to pack your own car, or are you going to walk everywhere?
     
  18. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Steam controlls how your games run. It may not be taking full control of your computer, but it is taking control of that part. ANY taking of control from the end user is bad.

    And no, you can't run a steam game without the steam service running. If it doesn't run at startup, it will start with the game (after which I believe you need to turn it off manually).

    And yes, I am anti-DRM. ALL DRM. I don't care if it takes less control than others; any control taken, anywhere, is bad. To quote Captain Jean-Luc Picard:
    And I'm saying they shouldn't be owned, heavily influenced, and controlled.

    It is predominantly young people saying they don't mind the loss of control. And did I say all? No, I did not.

    For the record, I'm 20.

    Strawman argument since it's a very special case. Moot point anyways; I won't fly because of the TSA.
     
  19. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Or, accurately, Steam doesn't restrict how Civ5 runs, Civ5 needs Steam to run. It's the equivalent of a car needing gas to run. The gas isn't controlling how your car runs, but it's a necessary feature of the car. And yes, I realize people have hacked into the game so as to let the game run without it, but that's not the point. My point is Steam isn't a restriction on Civ5. Civ5 was created so as to require Steam. Just like Civ4 was created so as to require a CD to play (until the latest BTS patch), etc.
     
  20. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Not true. Valve could easily put their library functions into a DLL file which Firaxis could install if it wasn't on the system, thereby requiring no other services, no online connectivity (or saved credentials), etc. They chose not to.

    Trust me, my CS 241 course spent a whole week on linking.
     
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