To people who disliked Steam.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Skwink, May 6, 2011.

?

How do you feel about Steam now?

  1. I like it.

    104 vote(s)
    47.5%
  2. I don't like it.

    83 vote(s)
    37.9%
  3. I like Skwink.

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. like voting in polls lols

    28 vote(s)
    12.8%
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  1. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    ...and you wonder why companies go with DRM :lol:

    It was never legal for your to resell PC software. You know those license agreements which nobody reads?
     
  2. jbevermore

    jbevermore Warmongering Menace

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    GFWL is an absolute abomination. After buying Batman: Arkham Asylum and having to deal with that crazy system I swore I'd never touch it again.

    The craziest part is when you buy a GFWL game via Steam. Make your own Inception joke there.

    The part that others have mentioned about the cumbersome nature of physical media is not insignificant. I've found myself rebuying some games (like Civ3) just to enjoy not having to dig out a disk whenever I want to play them. That alone would be responsible for Steam and Battle.net style services being the future.
     
  3. ohioastronomy

    ohioastronomy King

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    I'm perfectly OK with the "disk in drive needed to run program" model - but when I'm done with something I have no issues whatsoever with giving it to someone else. The existence of stores reselling PC games suggest that your legal "analysis" is suspect.

    So, basically, the defenders of Steam want corporations to be able to enforce things like "no reselling", and folks who are bothered by this should just..accept it? Think it's a great idea?

    The entire piracy thing is largely an excuse for greed - plenty of companies have sold games without DRM and or with disk-based systems (like Civ 4). I pay for games that I buy, but if I want to lend someone a book or a game then I don't have any problem with that whatsoever. If the game is any good then I'm probably creating a customer for the next go-around.
     
  4. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Remember, communism is only bad if done by government. If companies do the same thing, it's not only OK, but a good thing (actually, this applies to any behavior).
     
  5. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    Fact- Steam- Eco freindly, instead of like four hundred fifty two million seventy eight disks all over the place- 1's and o's in the electric field of tomorrow

    Fact- Steam- Modern, all via electro bit, making the physical a relic, a dinosaur, bellowing out dinosaur bellows afor the fall

    Fact- Steam- A variety of games, just sitting there. and additions to games. just sitting there. games i did not know exsisted, just sitting there. games missed, just ..

    Fact- Steam- Free. A free update service that has stuff to buy.

    the evidence is clear- Steam- "Nubes aqua caelum"

    Moderator Action: If posting in a language other than English, please provide a translation.
     
  6. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

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    I think "hardcore corporate defenders" closely correlates with "adults who know how the world works and know you don't get something for nothing".

    As for the rest:
    Otherwise the games would cost more? You realize that right? Money is never created out of thin air. If they aren't getting you out of it in those ways they get it out in purchase price.

    Another note:
    Despite being a "hardcore corporate defender" I almost never buy DLC or expansions because they are clearly ripoffs. I won't buy and of the garbage Civ 5 DLC until I can get them all for 5 bucks, possibly not even then.
     
  7. ButSam

    ButSam King

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    Strong dislike, moreso than the original Steam announcement.

    My reasoning is simple. Because of a lot of travel and other such stuff where it may be hard for me to access the Internet, I have to frequently go in Offline mode. But if I don't remember to go from Online mode to Offline mode BEFORE I disconnect from the Internet, Steam will often-times not allow me to go in Offline mode, even if I tell it to start in Offline mode b/c there is no internet connection, and put in my username/password combo. I find it extremely buggy and annoying, but it has persisted through a few Steam patches, so I don't have much hope they will change it soon.
     
  8. ohioastronomy

    ohioastronomy King

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    As a consumer I can advocate for a model where software is treated like buying a book. Or I can accept a model where I have licenses with numerous restrictions. I'm doing the former. I can understand why corporations want to maximize their profits - but giving money to a software company is not the same thing as giving money to a charity.

    A lot of the discussion here gets pretty bizarre, with folks acting as if companies are doing us a favor by selling us games. Nonsense. Companies will do what they think they can get away with. Having them know that doing certain things costs them sales is a way of changing their behavior.

    That is why I refuse, on principle, to buy any DLC. It's a way for companies to charge for things which they used to either give away free (or equivalently bundle in the purchase price) or added in expansions. Glad we agree on that. My objections to Steam are founded on the same grounds. I'd add that the mining of in-game data has also led to some truly awful metric-based design decisions that I really detest - basically, companies watering down games by excising any parts that are too hard or insufficiently popular for a mass audience.
     
  9. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Money can be created out of thin air. The Obama administration has / is / and wants to continue doing that right now.

    I agree with above, it's bizarre reading someone say that a company did them a favor by selling them a game, and then that person says thank you to the company when they fix what they sold broke, although it still doesn't completely work.

    And defending that they bought nothing, because they own nothing, and they want it that way.

    That's why I won't give these people or any other steamed product my money.
     
  10. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Check out the Civ 4 eula (and this post from 2005 complaining about it). Funny how this was the end of gaming back then.

    http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=22466

    You agree not to:

    ...

    (b) Distribute, lease, license, sell, rent or otherwise transfer or assign this Software, or any copies of this Software, without the express prior written consent of LICENSOR


    I'm not saying it wasn't done, but it was definitely not legal for many games.

    Also, the "Defenders of Steam" don't care about corporations. We like Steam and aren't bothered by a small program running in the background that lets us communicate with friends, buy cheap games and a bunch of other features mentioned.
     
  11. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    EULA's are a joke. You can't even see it until you open your game; and once you open your game, you cannot return it (in most circumstances).

    Software and digital media companies are hurting themselves with all this stuff, because it's so one-sided and anti-consumer.
     
  12. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Clearly Civ 4 was a colossal failure because of it. :lol:
     
  13. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Where did I say anything about Civ 4 or about it being a failure? Where exactly did you even come up with that from?

    And what does your statement have to do with this:

    "You can't even see it until you open your game; and once you open your game, you cannot return it (in most circumstances)"

    ? <facepalm>

    EDIT: If anything, not being able to return a game means possibly more revenue although increased dissatisfied consumers. Common sense assumption here.
     
  14. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    That EULA was from CIV IV. Not V, 4.
     
  15. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    That is irrelevant, what I said applies to all EULA's in general. I was talking about EULA's, not about Civ 4.

    "You can't even see it until you open your game; and once you open your game, you cannot return it (in most circumstances)"

    So where did you fathom up the Civ 4 is a failure thing from?
     
  16. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    Reselling software was and is absolutely, definitely legal at least in my country. The respective clause (that you quoted from the Civ4 EULA) is invalid because it violates rights that cannot be taken away from the customer.

    There also was a pretty big movement in Germany to contest the legality of the Steamworks license on similar grounds. However, the German customers' rights centers lost the case in court. The judge acknowledged that resale-exclusions like the one Steam uses are indeed a reduction of customers' rights, but stated that they did not violate current law (due to the software not being sold as a tangible product, the special customer protection mentioned in my first paragraph doesn't apply). He then recommended that buyers would have to make a conscious decision as to whether they want to support such practices. (Which is precisely the decision I made, and my answer was "no".)

    Personally, I don't care much about game resales - as I said before, I'm a collector, I'd never sell my games anyway. But I can see that for the people who _do_ care about resales, Steam took away a customer's right that was important to them.

    In the end, everybody just has to weigh what he gains and loses by using Steam. If you enjoy the gains (which you listed), and if the losses don't mean much to you, then you'll of course use Steam happily. And if the gains don't mean much to you, and if the losses take away things you deem important, then you won't (which is the case for me). For example, I can see and understand why people might enjoy the security of being able to re-download a game even if they lost the disk. However, I _never_ lost a disk (despite having several hundred titles in my games library), so to me this feature is irrelevant.

    Theoretically, it _should_ be possible to end in a state of mutual respect - agreeing to disagree, and understanding that other people simply have other preferences and priorities as oneself. With the Steam discussion, however, this mutual respect seem especially difficult to achieve.
     
  17. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    But it's still a control over your game. The CD restriction is preventing you from using your product freely. If the CD is damaged, it's possible to not be able to play the game at all.

    You don't have to accept it, but the response is to not buy it. Not to break the agreement. Would you be OK if the lease were signed before purchase instead?
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I don't even...understand this argument. Are you saying that steam is like communism, that it isn't but should be, or talking about something else entirely?

    Most well run companies do so with a good incentive structure in place...and consumers aren't part of their governance but rather a driving force in their decision making.

    The market doesn't seem to be placing value in companies being more pro-consumer, at least not to the extent where companies feel incentive to change their behavior.

    It also collects information about you, your computer, and probably your location and profiles you. Granted, this isn't atypical practice on the internet these days at all (many simple ad programs do this), but some/most don't like it. People tolerate it to varying degrees, but it's worth mentioning.
     
  19. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    You're missing the point.

    All this "evil" was present way back when... and what happened? I bet most Civ 4 gamers never knew this or cared to.

    People think that non-transferable licenses are new, and they most definitely are not.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    They're definitely more enforceable though.
     
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