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Toku Deity Raging Barbs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pangaea, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Rolled another Fractal map with all random leaders. With Raging Barbs.

    "Please not Toku".

    Toku.

    Hit me again.

    Willem. Gah, that guy is kinda cheesy strong. Hit me again.

    Toku.

    You win :lol:


    Deity Toku start.jpg
     

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  2. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Have played the first 50 turns, so I know a little about the map.
    Spoiler :
    We are still alive, which is nice. Had to quickly get out a warrior because one guy spawned close and directly invaded. Warrior came out one turn before the attack, and thankfully won. I settled 1S on the PH.

    Very awkward start due to Toku's terrible starting techs. Made worse here really because AH is a long way off. Worker could only road for about 10 turns.

    Ran into Joao, and later Wang. There must be others (Joao EP spending), but haven't met them yet.

    Interestingly, the raging barbs setting may be an advantage here, due to how the map is laid out. Pretty easy to fogbust our area. Unless you are unlucky with archers invading super-early, it should be fine. Joao actually went from 2 cities to 1 early... so not an easy ride for the AI either ;-)

    Sadly Joao just stole a spot I ideally wanted last turn, but there is room for ~6 cities, which is playable. Sad to have killed a fish by the PH settling, but no way to know about that. Archery turned out to be unneeded, but I didn't want to take any risks. Barbs invade right off the bat, after all.

    Copper was lost, but maybe there is something else in our area.

    Deity Toku spot steal.jpg
     
  3. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    A different shakeup. Toku is happy.

    Settings: Deity, Raging barbs, Low sea level

    Happy Toku start.jpg


    This one I haven't played, but it looked interesting, and I thought it might be something @krikav would like.

    Am not sure if Low sea level and Raging barbs is actually playable, but let's find out? :mischief:
     

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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Looks like tough settings!! :D
    I'm busy with the NC game now though, just reached 1AD and stopping for writeup there now and comparisson with your checkpoint.
     
  5. civac

    civac Warlord

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    Is Toku not a great leader for Raging Barbs?
     
  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Probably still the most challenging one. I don't mind either AGG or PRO, but having both means you have zero real traits.
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    At least PRO can help out in the early game here as we presumably need to go Archery, but like sampsa wrote, it kinda feels like starting without traits (or half a trait). Additionally, it's a bit like with Germany, where it feels like you are also playing without a UB, because the Shale Plant comes so terribly late.

    Still haven't tried out the second save, but I'd like to try, just to see how quickly I'll probably die. If it truly is horrendous, I'd like to see how @Fippy does as well. She is so good in dire straits.
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I started the 2nd save. I don't want to spoil anything, but you get the full deity raging barbarian experience.

    Toku might make the first 40ish turns easier, but he's a drag for the rest of the game. Honestly, something like creative is very good early for raging barbs too, and actually has other real benefits.
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Creative is almost always super helpful when dealing with barbs.
    Not only the earlier border pops, but if you go early libraries you get the second borderpop rather soon too, especially in capital. In the right cirumstances it can save a fortune in upkeep for fogbusters or defenders.

    With raging barbs, perhaps even PRO could come in handy, but other than that, I don't mind toku that much, because I really like AGG.
    Cover warriors early on can save you hunt->archery alot of times. Cheaper barracks can make failgolding heroic abit more profitable as more cities can get them.
    Cheaper drydock is something I apprechiate alot too (maybe because I play alot of iso?). Crummy coastal cities that don't have much else going for them, where you can't really justify a forge, well.. There you can whip a 60h drydock and then whip out some boats from there.
    But the best thing is just the combat1 promotion, that makes axeruches and construction wars so much yummier. And it makes drafted units decent too.
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Started the second save too. Not at all used to raging barbs, but they are enabled in a BOTM too, so getting some practice might be good. :)
    Can absolutely recommend the map!

    Spoiler T67 :

    I wasn't sure going worker first was even possible. But I decided to gamble on that.
    As soon as worker was done, capital did a few warriors with that 3H plains hill.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Almost died here. Two warriors in the forest where defending. The attacking archer gibbed one and wasn't even that injured.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    And in the city, I was just plain stupid and greedy and had started a barracks build, I should have at LEAST put hammers into a warrior to get it out in an emergency, but I wanted to start building archers instead.
    The last warrior does survive the 24% battle next turn though, and I get to fight on.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    I went pottery before BW to get some desperately needed commerce out. And I'm awarded with jungle growth on one of my few tiles available.
    I settled Oasaka there with clams in second ring, I assumed that seafood was impossible on raging barbs until after triremes.
    Osakas first (and second) build was workboat(s), which I planned to send in both directions, meeting AIs is important and raging barbs make that impossible by land for me, and very tough for the AIs too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Once BW is in, my workboat is up in the north and It's all but certain that we are isolated.
    We even have copper available for barb defence! Nice!
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    At T67 I _think_ I'm completely safe. That line of defenders there should block pathfinding of the northern barbs, and lobotomize them, but I'm not sure how that works on raging barbs? I will have to shuffle them around abit too, so that they get the safest tiles, warrior should get one of the forested ones.
    I'm consindering a city NE of the pigs, as that would be possible to defend I think.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    The west can be fogbusted by a single warrior, but here workboat and warrior help each other out, to avoid one supply upkeep.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    Just finished off one rogue barb warrior which I let bypass the northern wall to make sure I completed that before more barbs poured down. Will probably have to delete one of these warrior.
    Regarding tech... Writing feels abit late, but with barb issues and archery that's probably reasonable.
    Not sure whats wise to do here, but almost certainly monarchy will be involved, with the wine.
    Perhaps some marble play can be relevant too, but more likely just optics after monarchy, need to get MC somewhat early too, to be able to start working the clams in safety.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG



     

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  11. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    The only time I tried deity raging barbs was brutal:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/a-strange-tale-raging-barbs-challenge.571918/

    So this time I played it safe, too safe probably.
    Spoiler :
    SIP and worked the forested PH, churning out 3t warriors and went directly for Archery.
    I declare the island barb-free and fogbusted turn 45.
    Minimal losses:
    Raging barbs stats.jpg

    Have two nice veterans, a Woody II-warrior and a Guerilla II-archer.
    The cost? Well, capital still at size 1 building the worker :lol:
    I suspect one has to find some middle ground and not completely neglect development.
    At least we're not completely isolated, I can spot borders in the fog (Spanish? Celtic?), which at some point will allow contact.
     
  12. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I'm curious to see someone else play the second map further into the game.
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul I put that game on hold. But could probably pick it up again. How far in have you played it?
     
  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    1400ish AD I think. I don't remember what turn that equals.
     
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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'll se if I can make it! I got abit burned from that Kublai game with low sea level, it's tough. And the addition of slower start here due to Toku and raging barbs make it feel kind of hopeless, but I'm curious how the AIs are faring too, perhaps the barbs caused them troubles too?
     
  16. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    Hmm, I would've thought Raging Barbs only exacerbates the problem of runaway AIs that low sea level already creates. Wouldn't some AI (at least the one with TGW) take the land of those that succumbed to barbs and become Juggernauts before we can even leave our island?
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    *La la la la.... Can't heeeeeear you!*
     
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  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T112 :


    Starting the game again, I notice that I'm not in slavery and that combined with that I have anger in a city and a warrior that won't reach it untill next turn, makes me revolt right away.
    I had settlers almost built in both cities, so I make plans for two cities.
    A workboat was rotting in the queue so I'll finish that first and go up to that clam.
    I want that spot, as it claims 3 riverside, allthough 2 are under jungle now. :( I also get alot of forest in first ring.
    In the west, I plan a city on the wine. It will kill a good tile but...
    Having that wine improved right away when I reach monarchy is nice. I have only two workers and I will have troubles getting (and affording) more.
    Wine-city is good in that it can share the pig (which is more or less essential.) And it also gets it's own clams and reaches that marble.
    1S of wine is probably as good, but that forfeits the possibility to place a filler-city 1W of the horse later on, that can borrow the clam.
    Workers are sent into forests that can't be reached by wine-city, I want library in capital up in a hurry!
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    The western workboat takes a peek to the west and discovers a island with a crab, (and later it would turn out, that island also has fish+clam, sick!).
    I want to put a city there, but when I can is anybodys guess.
    Economy is bad. I'm barely reaching writing by working coast. Settler is whipped in capital, the overflow and two forest takes the library build a long way. Next turn a worker enters the pre-chopped-pre-roaded forest and finish it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    After the library build, capital hogged both food sources and got up to happycap asap then hired two scientists to get the academy guy out as soon as possible.
    Poor Osaka almost starved, and Tokyo got it's monument and granary delayed as a result... Perhaps a too high price to pay?
    I opted against a monument in Osaka, but I did get one in Tokyo, which I clearly shouldn't as I was ready to 2pop whip the library just a few turns later. Could have saved a forest instead and gotten the clam online a turn or two later.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    This feels like a darn late monarchy. :| Started a worker build in capital which I later regretted, should have let it rot away.
    But second and third city then took the food sources and got up to speed.
    I'm running 2 scientists in both cities all the time to make sure I have GScientists for Astro later on. Satasuma is also working on a GSci but will pause those plans abit when it gets riverside cottages. I just have to remember to continue to work on a GPerson there later!
    I go sailing next, to give cities the possibility to build lighthouses. I also want a galley for that lovely island!
    Barb galleys have been spotted, so I should probably not settle until after I got a trireme or two.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    Economy is much better, getting abit of population helped alot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Almost right away when I try to push north, spears attack! The two eastern archers try to bypass and take up fogbusting positions up north, while the two other archers move back to defend by the river and hills.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    On top of everything, I have to clear jungle too! Arrrgh! Nice to know I have iron, I already feel the urge for some Samurai action! I hope I'm reading the color right and thats Isabella, and if it's the celts... please no Boudica! I need a soft target thats easy to reach.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler 1 AD situation :


    Metalcasting almost done, and IW is in. Optics isn't THAT far away.... 2550 beakers at 74bpt sustained... Oh T149 optics at this pace. :|
    I feel like I have no slack at all to do anyting in the 3 southern cities.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    Capital has just reached pop9, not entirely sure it's worth it to push past healthcap more to take over grassland cottages so I'm just stagnating on scientists now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    It will be such a relief when this city spawns it's GSci. Very nice production here. Must try to get heroic up fast here.
    MC is soon in.. wonder if I should get the forge done now, or lay off the iron and try to grow abit more? Probably grow, my techrate needs to improve.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
    The least exciting city thinkable. I took away a scientist here for a turn, to put it behind Osaka in queue, so this city will work 2 scientists for 28 more turns.
    In 3 turns, it's likely that a barb galley will smash the clams, perhaps I should whip away the population and let capital take these cottages to get my own galley out now?
    I'm sure it will just die though, as my galleys always do.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    Here I have some degree of freedom. Have recently whipped the lighthouse, either I just grow up to pop6 again, working 3 riverside grassland cottages and 2 scientists... Or I whip a settler to settle another city by the river...?

    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
    The island is a given priority. And I think that the PH 2E of the pigs is sensible although it hurts me to not get pigs in first ring. But after that... not sure. A city on the wine would be able to borrow pigs, but have no food of it's own. A city 2N of the iron looks like it has some potential, but with a deer in second ring it's far far away when multiple workers are ready to support, and probably while in caste system.
    If stone+crab city is placed 1S, I don't orphan a riverside grassland which I risk doing, it also opens up the possibility for a city 1N of stone. But it would kill a forest and have the goodies in second ring. :/ Tough choices!

    I'm thinking that I should probably not settle anything more at all, until after optics. Further settlements now will delay that bottleneck too much.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    74 bpt sustained... I think I recall having 100bpt at 1AD as some sort of benchmark, but I'm not sure.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG




    *Edit* Added savefile. */Edit*
     

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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul
    You don't have this printed out and on the wall by the computer yet?!
     

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