Tokugawa is a bastard

[Sinewave]

I like playing as him, if I want to play a total domination/conquest game.

But that is not what I'm playing now. 3 times I've started as China. I want to do a rapid tech race, and every time I start next to Tokugawa. No matter how many missionaries and techs I give him, he remains cautious and eventually turns on me.

What to do?

 

[Gooblah]

Tokie is one of those leaders who'll never be Friendly. The only way to have even a Pleased status with him is giving him what he wants, gifting him low-end techs, having the same religion in all cities for at least a century, warring against his enemies, cutting off trade with others, and becoming his lap-dog until you can overtake him on power and either sink him and become a Civ Hero or become the master and sic him on others.

 

[carl corey]

I don't think he's that bad, it's just that the usual things - trading, shared religion - don't interest him that much. Instead warring together and adopting Mercantilism go a long way with him.

I've had a game with Saladin in Warlords in which we shared the continent with two other civs, I wiped out one early, and then we both attacked Izzy, multiple times, until we finished her. After that he even signed a Defensive Pact with me and it allowed me to win a Cultural victory. (between me and Izzy we founded 6 religions)

In another game with Hatty he wasn't on my continent but I still got to sign a DP with him until the end of the game. Also Warlords.

I'm not sure if he was changed in any way in BtS though.

 

[KMadCandy]

Tokie is one of those leaders who'll never be Friendly. The only way to have even a Pleased status with him is giving him what he wants, gifting him low-end techs, having the same religion in all cities for at least a century, warring against his enemies, cutting off trade with others, and becoming his lap-dog until you can overtake him on power and either sink him and become a Civ Hero or become the master and sic him on others.

you're exaggerating on purpose right? certainly doable. one vanilla game i had him at friendly when he was not running his favorite civic. that game was the pre-BtS not-better-AI Agg AI setting too, where they're all biased against the player but not each other.

you mention "gifting him low-end techs". i actually feel safe giving him good deals on high-end techs, depending how he's getting along with the rest of the playground, and how sure i am he's not going to use them to bash my head in of course. he's a very stingy tech trader unless he's at friendly ... which means that if he's not friendly with anybody else, he won't go trading around whatever tech i give him/trade him. requires a good map set-up for him to have techs worth trading tho, what with his tendency to shut himself off from the world.

I'm not sure if he was changed in any way in BtS though.

i dunno ... he asked to capitulate to me the other day, when nobody was beating up on him! i'd never seen that from him before. i took him up on it just because it felt so bizarre. chances are it's not a new thing, it's just so rare that i'm so high on power that he thinks it's worth asking. gosh i felt tough *giggle*

 

[I EAT CRAYONS]

Kill him before he kills you. The AI is ridiculously bad at defending against "Zerg rush KEKEKEKEKEKE" type things.

 

[jason77024]

If you're playing a low-to-medium level, and he's really close (~10 spaces), warrior rush before he gets archers. Especially if you have a civ that doesn't have hunting - you start with a warrior. Take three guys, he will likely have only one at home, and Toku can't start the game researching Archery or BW. He also will have only one border pop, meaning you can get to him quickly. Finally, he will not have a religion for cultural defense.

NB. I haven't played with Solver's BtS patch, which may indeed eliminate this oppty.

 

[Terry_pdx]

I have to speak up for the guy. He's really no more undependable than Isabella - both will turn on you even after you shower them with gifts - he's just potentially more dangerous. Still, I count one of my great victories when he voted for me in the end and gave me a diplomatic victory. After that, I always have a soft spot for him even while trading blows.

 

[vicawoo]

Maybe you could bribe someone to war against him, and then backstab your guy. Mutual military struggle points.

 

[vengeance1000]

He is a bastard... so you have to WAR! mwahahaahaha
but when I tryed I lost....

 

[Warspite2]

I like playing as him, if I want to play a total domination/conquest game.

But that is not what I'm playing now. 3 times I've started as China. I want to do a rapid tech race, and every time I start next to Tokugawa. No matter how many missionaries and techs I give him, he remains cautious and eventually turns on me.

What to do?

Yet another person who has it out for Tokugawa. He is tough, hard to beat and stubborn. Sometimes I just build forts and keep some units fortified near my borders in case he tries something.

 

[Cer]

Yet another person who has it out for Tokugawa. He is tough, hard to beat and stubborn. Sometimes I just build forts and keep some units fortified near my borders in case he tries something.

Tokugawa won't trade with me or open his borders. I guess I'll just have to go over there and kick his patootie.

 

[Gooblah]

Actually, KMad, I wasn't exaggerating. I've gotten a Friendly Tokie once. And that was because we were on either end of the continent, allowing peaceful expansion and no warring. Trading and Mercantilism helped due to the fact that Optics wasn't hit yet.

 

[KMadCandy]

Actually, KMad, I wasn't exaggerating.

you said "never" so you were . if you really thought he swore an oath to never be friendly i wanted to be sure you knew it was possible was all .

 

[DMOC]

Yea, I agree tokugawa is a bastard. In my ~20ish games with him as an opponent, I never got as far as "Cautious" (usually down at the "Annoyed" and "Furious" level because of making arrogant demands). I never had open borders with him (isn't he the only leader that when you meet him at around 3000 BC as "cautious" he wont sign open borders?)

 

[Arnesson]

i dunno ... he asked to capitulate to me the other day, when nobody was beating up on him! i'd never seen that from him before. i took him up on it just because it felt so bizarre. chances are it's not a new thing, it's just so rare that i'm so high on power that he thinks it's worth asking. gosh i felt tough *giggle*

It can happen! This is a first for me! Usually Toku is a rabid dog, not happy unless he is trashing my troops. And I am not even in the top three in either score or power!

 

[CivCorpse]

I usually try to avoid irritating him too much until the industrial age, by that time he is usually fairly tech-impaired with an infrastucture that is a wreck from all his senseless wars. The key for me has been not trying to maske him happy, just trying to make him less happy with others. If he is a neighbor. I build for war from the get go...it is only a matter of time before he attacks. I usually wait for him so I am not worrying about "you DOW on our friend 4000 years ago penalties."

 

[KMadCandy]

I'm not sure if he was changed in any way in BtS though.

i found out he has in one way. he was one of the few leaders who would never sign a PA no matter what, even tho he is quite open to DPs. in BtS, all leaders will sign PAs.

he won't sign the PA unless you're at friendly, so the chance that it'll happen isn't all that huge *giggle*. but it's no longer impossible.

The key for me has been not trying to make him happy, just trying to make him less happy with others.

yup that can work spiffy! it's part of why i watch the diplo relationship between everybody and each other, not just them and me. i love the glance screen, it was probably my single favorite thing from HoF mod so i'm glad to see it in the core game. good luck fomenting unrest and stirring up trouble behind the scenes

 

[JoshuaZ]

I like playing as him, if I want to play a total domination/conquest game.

But that is not what I'm playing now. 3 times I've started as China. I want to do a rapid tech race, and every time I start next to Tokugawa. No matter how many missionaries and techs I give him, he remains cautious and eventually turns on me.

What to do?

Then you know why most of the Chinese people hate Japanese...

 

[Big Boss Man]

Well I like him . If I start close to him I try to slowly " win " him over . Only to either get him to help me later in a war or for trade . When the time is right I will fight him depending on the victory goals . You might try to gift him a tech early on this may help you get open borders . Spread some missionaries around . If you can declair war on a third party do it when the time is right and who know he may " help " you for a price . Gift him gold or tech and poof
He will like you more .

If he is far away I let him rot and try to get other civs to isolate him . No trade for him .

 

[dante alighieri]

Actually, KMad, I wasn't exaggerating. I've gotten a Friendly Tokie once. And that was because we were on either end of the continent, allowing peaceful expansion and no warring. Trading and Mercantilism helped due to the fact that Optics wasn't hit yet.

I've gotten friendly with him once, too. I was shocked. But I gifted him techs early in the game, enough to get open borders. As usual he kept tohimself, and by mid game he was trailing in tech. So I'd gift him a few every so often and suddenly he was my best buddy.