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Tomatekh's New Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ5 - New Civilizations' started by Tomatekh, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    My mod and the CBP make different changes to the Kremlin resulting in the overlap. However, I make my mods primarily with the base game, so I'm not concerned with accommodating the changes made by the CBP.
     
  2. Stef09

    Stef09 Warlord

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    Found a minor bug in & have some ideas for the Great Spy mod. Playing as Harappa and using CP (16-feb), E&D, all up-to-date JFD gameplay mods, EE, HR, PeC.
    - Have built both wall and jail in capital - each supposedly provides +1 intelligence according to description. Walls provided +1 intelligence indeed, but noticed that when jail was finished intelligence per turn stayed at +1 only. Attached the logs.

    - The intelligence costs for certain missions - do they increase over time and if so, based on what? You can only see the costs when in Choose Mission screen, but you might not have enough Intelligence. Is there a way to show the costs earlier, which might help in deciding at what time to send Great Spy in?
    - You already have a great number and cool missions in there. Thinking of any opportunities to add to this, I didn't see a mission to destroy a building in a city, see enemy troops or acquire enemy maps (for a certain intelligence cost), which could be fitting features for a spy. Would any of those be a nice addition?
    - I'm not sure I would ever use the Sell Secrets mission (perhaps just me as I'm less interested in score) which however feels like the #1 end-game mission to spend Intelligence on. Perhaps above suggestions can be used to balance options to spend (excess) Intelligence on during end-game? Or convert Intelligence into Science or something?
    - If Great Spy succesfully returns, will it level up thus increasing future success rate? Perhaps in combination with giving it a delay for its next Great Spy mission?

    Thanks for this great mod!
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Watchington

    Watchington Chieftain

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    I get it. (Still hope this issue will be resolved in the futer versions of your mod.) Btw, if so, I was wondering, if you or someone else could change the Icon for Kremlin, or rename it to Red Square as I previously said. Cause St. Basils Cathedral can be built by JFD's Ivan the Terrible (with Events and Decissions.)
     
  4. Stef09

    Stef09 Warlord

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    Kremlin and St. Basil's Cathedral are not the same, so why? If anything, St. Basil's Cathedral is at the Red Square.
     
  5. Watchington

    Watchington Chieftain

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    That's what I'm saying. It's that in default game the icon is the cathedral, while splash screen shows the Kremlin. And it's the same in CP, while its renamed to St. Basils splash screen still shows Spasskaya Tower and Lenin's Mausoleum. And in closer look to cities, the wonder consists of Kremlin palace and the Cathedral. Renaming it to Red Square could easily solve this this issue, cause they are both located there.
     
  6. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    Thanks for feedback! Before I answer them, let me just ask, did you guys encounter any crashes when using the mod? I've been getting a few crash reports on Steam (with commenters, of course, providing no additional information, so I have no real way to track the crashes down).

    @Stef09

    - Okay, the jail intelligence is because I accidentally had the lua check for BUILDINGCLASS_JFD_PRISON instead of BUILDINGCLASS_JFD_JAIL (so currently the prison will actually give +1 despite the description). I actually meant to have both provide +1 but then at some point during coding conflated the two buildings in my head and thought there was only one "jail" building :p

    - The costs are actually a percentage of your current great spy generation threshold. I wasn't sure what to set them at, so they likely need to be re-balanced (though the kidnap GP mission is supposed to be prohibitively expensive). Kidnap GP is 50% of your threshold, steal GW & partisans are 25%, and destroy resource is 12.5%. However, each espionage building (constabulary, police station, intelligence agency, firewall) in the nearest city increases the cost by 2.5% each. Because it varies slightly based on the espionage buildings in each city, it makes it difficult to show ahead of time (though the espionage building thing was sort of just a throw away effect added for flavor, so I was thinking about removing it anyway).

    - I like the idea of destroying buildings, but I'd have to think of how to do it interface wise. Unless, I just go with a random building. I also thought about a map mission, and I was sort of hinting at it by giving the unit extra movement/sight and the ability to enter rival territory. My concern with it as a mission was that it's something you would do early game but not at all late game after you already had the map. So, it required generating enough great spies early enough for it to be useful, and I wasn't sure of the balance in terms of how quickly spies would be generated / you acquired intelligence. But, early game focused missions are something I might revisit once I'm more settled on the overall balance of the mod / yields.

    - To be honest, I would never use the sell secrets mission either. I've never really cared about score victory and any mod that gives the player a free dummy policy already inflates your score by 4 for each dummy policy, making it unreliable. I don't know. Originally, the mod didn't have intelligence. Great spies were generated by great spy points and the more powerful missions actually cost research. When I decided to add the intelligence system, I felt the only way to justify adding a yield was if it actually did something outside of the great spy system. So, I added the ability to reveal resource plots, and then I needed something to spend it on end-game (so it wouldn't be a complete dead-end investment). Looking at what already existed in the game, player score seemed like the main victory type that the other great people didn't already directly benefit (scientists can indirectly through future tech, but, whatever), so I added it as the spy's niche. I'm very hesitant about giving the great spy a direct bonus to science or techs. As stealing techs is the main ability of the standard spy, I didn't want the great spy's abilities to overlap the standard spy's usefulness too much.

    - The great spy actually does already level up if it returns. The mod keeps track of it up to 4 times but doesn't do anything with it (because I was too lazy to code it and was going to add it to an update :p )

    @Watchington

    I actually agree that the wonder is very poorly named considering the art used. It never really made sense to me that the CBP went straight to St. Basils based on the icon, despite the wonder-splash, quote, and pedia stuff being focused on the Kremlin (i.e. either way, some of the assets would be wrong). The main reason why I kept it as Kremlin is that in past civ games the wonder has always been named the Kremlin and was often used for espionage bonuses. So, I was purposefully keeping with civ tradition :p I'm not against renaming it, but icon art is hard to come by these days. All the best icon artists - Janboruta, Leugi, Sukritact - have largely moved on to Civ VI modding. In terms of The Motherland Calls, the main issue is that, in my opinions, the CBP went about adding it wrong. If you're adding two wonders, with one of them identical to an existing wonder, it makes more sense to me to simply update the text/art of the existing wonder instead of deleting it and adding two entirely new wonders. This is what I did and ensures a consistent baseline related to the game files and more compatibility with other mods that might also edit that wonder.
     
    Stef09 and SLGray like this.
  7. Stef09

    Stef09 Warlord

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    Thanks for the extensive reply!

    I haven't experienced any CTDs myself using the Great Spy mod (except for the Olmec-one already reported), but have really only come halfway yet in a game with it. Will try and finish a full game soon and let you know if anything comes up more end-game. So far the mod itself appears really stable...

    Will also let you know when finishing that game if I have suggestions on balancing of costs vs threshold. Kind of like your description and the use of espionage buildings in the costs-equation, but if too complex to model to show prior (which I feel would be quite important to be able to plan turns): perhaps instead of the espionage buildings, just a regular spy stationed in one of its cities can also contribute to a costs increase to add bit more flavor?

    For the destroying of buildings: I was actually already thinking about just a random building instead of selection (believe similar to the use of a spy/diplomat in older Civ-games?), although selection would be even cooler. But can imagine the complexity to code that via interface. Also the design-choice whether the costs to destroy a building should be different (and if so how) for e.g. a simple granary vs a military base.

    Think that with the many mission-options and the way you have the costs calculated (as % of threshold) it will never be a dead-end investment, as there will always be use for Intelligence to spend on missions, but not with excessive amounts in reserve. In that sense, Sell Secrets feels less of a necessary option but I get your reasoning.

    Just 3 last-minute brainwaves:
    - Do you get a diplo-hit with the target civ if your Great Spy is caught?
    - A mission to convert enemy unit when next to it with Great Spy (e.g. capture tank)
    - As I'm big fan of Wonders supporting such new game concepts: perhaps there's opportunity to include 1 or 2 specific wonders that provide either bonus Intelligence (Arecibo Observatory, http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=114480350) or a free Great Spy (Scotland Yard)
     
  8. Watchington

    Watchington Chieftain

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    I'm not really sure, but I believe the issue here is that your motherland calls wonder is always set on replacing the Kremlin wherever it is right now, as CP's motherland calls was already where the origial Kremlin has been. Corect me if I'm wrong.
     
  9. ldvhl

    ldvhl ніщо

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    I just experienced a crash while running the Great Spy mod. It happened the turn after I reached the Industrial Age. I'll try to get my mod list and logs posted in the morning when I can get access to my tower.

    Edit for mod list.

    Logs are attached. Ill try to get that mod list cleaned up today.
     

    Attached Files:

    • logs.zip
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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  10. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    Thank you! (And thank you for typing out such a long mod list!) I'll look over it and hopefully it should help me track down the cause.
     
  11. ldvhl

    ldvhl ніщо

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    No worries Tomatekh. You do fantastic work and I'm just glad I could help in some capacity.

    EDIT: not that any more design work is needed on this mod, but about a couple religious beliefs for the Great Spy mechanics? There's precedent with deities like Harpocrates and Ruadan. So maybe a Pantheon Belief like God of Secrets that gives cities +2 Intelligence/turn or something?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  12. Stef09

    Stef09 Warlord

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    Report on another playthrough using the Great Spy mod and playing Xia. No big issues, just some minor stuff:
    - Came to turn 174 without any CTD
    - Had quite a bit of Intelligence-generating buildings & wonders. Balance between costs and resources felt quite okay.
    - At some point my Great Spy got killed. However, it was a bit unclear how/where that happened as I don't believe it showed much details. I just got the icon that a unit was killed without any text in the bar left to it.
    - Had the belief "Negative Technology" and noticed that the bonus rounds up the Intelligence (so 0.6 to 1). Not sure if it works similar for other yields, but felt like you were getting more Intelligence than you should.
    - Performed 'Raise Partizans' mission: there was one barbarian unit with no 'red flag/unit indicator' above it so bit unclear where the unit belonged to (the other units would get that barbarian unit indicator).

    Then on Xia:
    - Decision: Tame the Yellow River: Upon finishing a 'regular' improvement (farm, plantation, mine, ..) next to a river I would get twice the same line for the bonus and it would also count twice (e.g. 2x 5 food bonus). Other ones like road building, reparing, cutting forest would give the 1 line and bonus just once. Was wondering whether the double bonus for 'regular' improvements is indeed intended like this?

    List of mods used: CP (15-Feb), JFD gameplay mods (all latest versions), HR, E&D, EE, PeC, RER, Great Spy (v11)
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    First, sorry for my inactivity here recently. Trying to figure out the Great Spy crash has sort of burned me out for a bit. Without being able to replicate it myself (or have a save I can use that has the crash), it might not be possible for me to fix. It's kind of exhausting just guessing (even with logs). I'll get back to it soon, though (and then do an update for PP and Mississippi as well).

    @ldvhl
    I did add Mystery Cults as sort of an alternative boost to the new Great Spy mechanics outside of intelligence, but I wasn't sure about the balance of how fast intelligence was earned early game so I avoided adding too much to its generation. However, as Stef09 and a few others posted, the balance seems to be okay, so I might look into giving more optional early game generation like beliefs (and I like trade-off bonuses where you'd have to choose the intelligence over some other belief bonus).

    @Stef09
    Thanks for the consistent reports! It's so nice actually getting feedback and bug reports for my mods. I really appreciate it.

    - Were you at war or maybe a barbarian? The unit can be killed like a standard unit. It is invisible, but that's more thematic than anything else (as V's invisible mechanics only apply if no unit is adjacent to it). I can add a notification if the unit is killed in combat.

    - It's not possible to give a fraction of a point so the mod does round the value (I forget if I used math.floor or ceiling, though). I'll double check if the math is working correctly, thanks!

    - I'll look into the barbarian thing. The lua grants the units to the barbarian player. There might be an issue with people using a DLL that goes significantly over the civ limit (since I just get Players[63]), but it should be fine otherwise. It might be an issue with the game trying to properly place the unit. I'll check.

    - Were you using JFD's new worker instant build system? If build time is too low, the game actually fires the on build lua twice (which would probably apply with JFD making everything instant). Honestly, I don't really feel that the Civ VI system works in V, but whatever :p I can probably save the plot in between firing, but I'd rather not mess with Xia's convoluted code any more than I have to. JFD might be able to adjust for it in his mod (since I know a lot of people have used on build for effects so this issue might come up with a lot of other mods). However, I never saw that decision ability as overly strong, so I don't think it's much of a balance issue if I just leave it as is in CiD.
     
  14. ldvhl

    ldvhl ніщо

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    Totally understandable Tomatekh. Thanks for keeping us updated!
     
  15. Stef09

    Stef09 Warlord

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    My pleasure! Feels like the least we can do to help you launch & improve these fabulous mods! Btw, great news on PP & Mississippi :)

    - It was a barbarian kill.

    - If the value is supposed to be rounded up, then I believe it works. Was more a principal question on "should a yield be rounded up"

    - Yes, using the latest CiD with new worker instant build system. Agree that it's not so much a balance issue - actually in a way it makes sense that a farm returns more food than a road.

    Thanks for the support!
     
  16. Mingel

    Mingel Warlord

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    This mod is avesomeeeee! I really like it. The options given is really cool.. I performed ''anarchy'' and Japan get 4 turns,and my great spy killed on route back ? I'm new to this mood so i saw there is indicator of chanse of survival of GS,but for anarchy didn't show anything... :) Also if i'm not in war my GS can stay in another civs border for unlimited turns and i will aways get scout report on culture and technology progress ?
     
  17. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    The missions always succeed (so you will always put the civ into anarchy, etc.). The escape chance is separate from the success of the mission and not all the missions have an escape chance (in which case the action will always consume the unit). Basically, it was my attempt to balance the missions. Some are weak but have a high chance to escape allowing you to re-use the unit, others are strong and require intelligence, others are a mix. Basically, why would you ever use the city revolt mission if you could just use the civilization anarchy mission?

    The anarchy mission doesn't have an escape chance. So, yes, the unit will always be consumed. Actually, the anarchy mission is what I considered the baseline mission for the great spy (so no escape chance but also no cost) and is what I considered a good basic ability on equal footing to some of the other great people. The number of anarchy turns is actually 1/3 your golden age length rounded up. So, you can increase the number of turns with the Chichen Itza wonder or the Suffrage policy.

    And, yeah, there's no limiting factor to the spy's secondary surveillance ability. You can keep it in foreign territory indefinitely to scout and see the civ's research. I'm not really sure how balanced that is, haha. Maybe I should limit it somehow?

    Also, I should warn you that a few people have reported a crash with the mod that, unfortunately, I haven't been able to track down yet. If you experience a crash, please do report anything you can about your game: what era you were in, what was happening, mods you were using, etc. Every little bit helps. I'm hopefully I will be able to correct the issue eventually.
     
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  18. YINGCHENG

    YINGCHENG Warlord

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    could not find great spy mod anymore on Steam workshop... is there sth wrong?
     
  19. Danmacsch

    Danmacsch Geheimekabinetsminister

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    Here it is.
     
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  20. YINGCHENG

    YINGCHENG Warlord

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    thanks a lot!
     

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